The chairperson is Pinkfish - Sat Feb 20 17:05:29 1993. Logging is now enabled - Sat Feb 20 17:05:39 1993. Godot nods solemnly. Pinkfish says: Ok. This meeting is now open and logging... Godot says: Oh, goody. I'm first in the log. Geolin smiles. Ember gets out his chainsaw to start logging immediately.%^RESET%^ Pinkfish says: first item on the agenda is guilds. Geolin smiles at Ember. Signe rolls her eyes. Geolin nods solemnly. Pinkfish says: I suppose I shouuld say something about this as I am supposed to be doing the wizards gfuild. Ember says: well, kringled said he was pressed for time Ember says: so perhaps we can rearrange items Kringled says: I have to go to work in about 20-30 mins Pinkfish asks: Oh yes. True. Ok. Kringled. Would you like to go first? Funtime waves to Gideon, Bubblebath, Tricky, Kip, Kringled, Pinkfish, Parsion, Chrisy, Ember, DrGoon, Signe, Geolin, Godot, Bunny, Mannanann and Hotwire. Geolin waves to Funtime. Kringled says: err. The one thing I wanted to bring up was economic balance Funtime hugs Geolin. Pinkfish fetches something from another dimension. Geolin asks: or lack of it? Pinkfish gives a floor to Kringled. Kringled says: as near as I can see...we have 2 sorts of problems... Kringled now has the floor. Kringled says: one is that people dont need to spend money.. Kringled says: or very much of it Kringled says: and we are also continually producing money, and also items.. Kringled says: now ember mentioned getting things to decay.. Kringled says: which will help some of it. especially if we have some expensive sharpening, etc. services Kringled says: but we probably still have some net influx of money into the system Kringled says: I was thinking about some kind of money supply system, to devalue currency etc. Kringled says: an actual money supply has a problem as such, in that it is easy for large sums of cash to be taken outside of the system Kringled says: by inactive players and the like Ember points at Genocide. Kringled says: so I was thinking, that if we instead devalue based on the average amount of money players have.. Agragag pokes DrGoon. Geolin waves to Genocide. Genocide says: Hi Kringled says: and maintain some running averages Agragag points at DrGoon. Agragag asks: is he dead? Signe nods solemnly. Genocide says: Sorry people I have a problem on a cust site :( Kringled says: that that might work.. Genocide says: so I cannot make this meeting Ember nods solemnly at Genocide. Genocide says: its a real pain Pinkfish comforts Genocide. Genocide asks: is someone logging things ? Kringled asks: any comments from those who might have any better understanding of economics or ? Genocide says: thanks Signe says: its ok geno, being logged Pinkfish asks: anyone? Signe says: and im being lagged Ember says: well ... Ember now has the floor. Genocide left the game. Ember says: the only comment I would have is that it is nice Kringled gives a floor to Ember. Ember says: to have some sort of constant reference point Ember says: so that when a creator is making a reward Ember says: they can base its value on something Ember says: I am not sure how that would work in a floating system Kringled says: well in a floating system Ember now has the floor. Kringled says: the floating is all done at the same level...so you base your rewards relative to everyone elses set valye Ember asks: ok, well, how would the averaging be updated? Geolin says: I like the sound of the decaying best.....sounds less complicated.. <shrug> Kringled says: well. it would say at every player login get that palyers amount of money. and every day or so compare that days running average to the reference point Signe asks: yes, but would it be enuff? Kringled says: and a pair of simple functions at every translation between real value and currency Ember says: it sounds possible The room is now locked. Kringled says: its one fiddly object I have to wrte Ember says: however we need to decide if it is needed/desirable DrGoon says: lets look at a design of this over the next few days then Kringled says: and sticking a lot of calls to do the translation in Pinkfish says: we need something... Ember says: the nice thing about the averaging Geolin says: Something is needed without a doubt, new players are fully equipped within minutes of entering the game... Ember says: is that if & when we do actually make the inflow equal the outflow Pinkfish says: or else we disable the saveing of inventory again. Ember says: then the averaging will stop screwing the values up Ember says: but in the meanwhile we get a bit of sense Kringled nods solemnly. Godot says: We *could* compute a weighted average wealth. Weighted by time since last logon. Geolin nods solemnly. Kringled says: the idea is to combine the 2 approaches, so that nothing ends up too far off whack Ember says: so, I would nominally support introducing it DrGoon says: it all falls apart by spiralling if we do not have something to take money... Pinkfish nods solemnly. Geolin says: we need some shops and/or services for players to spend the money in..... Pinkfish says: we need something people need to spend money on... Ember says: not as such. if we can keep the creators giving out roughly constant rewards DrGoon says: has to be the both Ember says: then the currency will devalue to a point and then become stable Geolin nods solemnly. Ember shrugs. Ember says: but yes, we need both Ember says: the major way we were intending was the degrading of weapons and armours Ember says: but that at the moment Ember says: this doesn't seem to be having a real impact Godot says: maybe we should get the newer creators to build expensive (non-sellable) items and services and hold off on letting them create real estate. Geolin asks: How is the house building coming along Godot, many response? Ember asks: so perhaps things are happening too slowly ... pf? Signe says: i think the decaying of armour and weapons is not only good for economy but is silly to have if we dont use it properly...and its very realistic DrGoon points at Godot. Pinkfish says: Ok. Does anyone have ideas on what we could get players to spend money on? I have effectively got rid of both of the standard ones from lpmud. That is alcohol and stuff when you re log in. Godot says: A few, but most of the rich players are getting promoted. DrGoon exclaims: bingo! Geolin nods solemnly at Godot. Pinkfish says: weapons/armours already decay... Godot says: I think I'll just create some houses and rent them. Kringled says: well. they arent doing it fast enough, or visibly enough to the players Ember asks: yes, but is it fast enough for them to actually degrade in quality noticeably? Ember says: I have not heard one comment from players about it Signe says: err...i find no problem with the bank 'breaking' now and then...or even a staged robbery DrGoon smiles wickedly. Pinkfish says: I changed the bank. Pinkfish says: Its much harder to break it now :) Pinkfish smiles wryly. Signe says: too bad Signe grins at Pinkfish. Kringled exclaims: poor investments....real estate deals gone awry...bail out at 2 silver pieces on the gold! Geolin grins like a maniac.%^RESET%^ Signe nods solemnly at Kringled. Godot says: Maybe we could steal a percentage of the money whenever it gets its supply high. Signe says: helpless teller, smug bank manager DrGoon asks: make the theives guild supply money to the patricianer? Signe says: cool Godot says: Put out a newspaper saying the bank was robbed. Geolin nods solemnly. Geolin says: s'good. Signe says: a note on the door Pinkfish says: yes. make the thieves a bit tougher... and better at stealing things :) Signe says: btw, err...pf? we have a gender prob with the theives Godot asks: Can we change them so they can't steal unique quest items? Pinkfish says: err yes. Signe says: there MAN no matter what gender they are Pinkfish blushes in embarassment. Kringled says: and they maybe shouldnt look like thieves Signe grins at Pinkfish. Pinkfish says: equal rights :) Ember says: pf, can you at least do us some sort of calculations on how quickly weapons and armours degrade? I would say they definitely need to be accelerated by a factor of 2 or 3 Signe says: it doesnt say thief now..just shifty eyes Pinkfish says: Not fast. Signe says: at least, yes Geolin says: I think thats the same with most, fighters are always master swordsman etc.. Pinkfish says: most of them have a damage chance of around 4-5% Signe says: they can have them repaired for a PRICE $$$$$$ Ember says: ok, I think that point is basically decided Geolin nods solemnly at Signe. Ember asks: can we move on in a structured matter? Pinkfish says: The smithy does that already too. DrGoon agrees wholeheartedly with Ember. Godot says: There's a smith on VR that will sharpen your weapons for a price. Pinkfish says: and yes, it is expensive :) Ember says: I want to get out of here DrGoon says: yes, move it to a board to thrash out further.... Signe says: ok, ok, ember Signe pokes Ember. Ember asks: were we on guilds? Signe nods solemnly. Pinkfish now has the floor. Pinkfish says: Ok..... to the top.... Pinkfish says: First item is guilds... Pinkfish says: Status of the guilds as I know of. Pinkfish says: Thieves guild is not being worked on. Pinkfish says: Priests guild is not being worked on. Pinkfish says: Witches guild is being worked on in a scattered fashion by ember :) Ember achems.%^RESET%^ Pinkfish says: and the wizards guild is being worked on in a sketchy way by me. Pinkfish says: As far as wizards guilds go and what I have done... Pinkfish says: I have written is a spell system. Pinkfish says: and a set of basic books which you can memorise spells off, also a remember and a forget command. Pinkfish says: What I srill need to write are a set of useful spell failures Pinkfish says: and a lot more spells. Signe nods solemnly. Pinkfish says: Kip is writing an expanded unseen university, so the guild will have some where to hang around. Geolin nods solemnly. Pinkfish says: Ok... Ember... Ember now has the floor. Ember says: heh :) Lilmother waves to Matrix, Bubblebath, Tricky, Jass, Kringled, Pinkfish, Parsion, DYLON, Chrisy, Ember, DrGoon, Signe, Geolin, Godot, Bunny, Sojan, Agragag, Mannanann, Vodog and Hotwire. Ember says: ok, well, university is starting for me soon, so I will move even slower on the witches than I was Ember says: (which was pretty damn slow) Ember says: however, potions are basically working and have been for a while. I was and will be working on adding a lot more effects to the potion space. This hit the hitch of effects on players in a consistent and Ember says: savable way Ember says: so currently (ie tomorrow) I am writing a system to do that Ember says: the witches guild itself Ember says: could be opened fairly quickly Ember says: with just potion making abilities Ember says: however, that does require a decent set of effects Ember shrugs. Ember says: that is the state Ember says: as of now Ember says: oh, Godot asks: Will the guild be limited to women and will they use headology? Ember says: the guild doesn't really have much of a place to live although I guess people have made Ember says: somewhere from what was written on the boards ... Ember says: ummm, I don't know about the headology Godot says: I created a place for it in the forest, but it has no inside. Ember says: and no, I was not intending to limit it to women Kringled says: hmm. I have been thinking about starting a player char, as a priest, so I know how it works from the inside...before I try to volunteer to work on it Signe says: its real important to witches Signe says: warlocks Signe says: says in the books Ember says: yes, but unless someone has a real cunning idea as to how to implement 'headology' I am going to ignore it Signe says: it can be vague Pinkfish says: you could just mention it a lot. Ember says: now, what about the state of the three existing and unworked upon guilds DrGoon says: it's okay ember, i just wondered if you had that one worked out at all.... Pinkfish says: Ok... prists guild. Pinkfish says: It has a set of spells. Signe says: perhaps a skill that gives them the ablility to see the monsters hps or something Signe says: a bit more than 'consider' which no one uses Pinkfish says: however, they have been patched about 6 or 7 times as I changed a few things underneath it. Pinkfish says: so they are looking a little tatty now. Ember snickers. Pinkfish says: I would suggest going for a rewrite... and comeing up with some sort of basic inheritable spell thingy Pinkfish says: like I have done with the wizards :) Pinkfish says: but not the same... Pinkfish says: It also currently suffers from the fact that one of my patches failed. Pinkfish says: taht is the teaching of spells to other players. Ember says: the inheritable spell would get around that quite nicely Pinkfish says: The thieves guild, what is there, was written by me apart from the ambush command (which was written by bil). Pinkfish says: so it all works :) Pinkfish says: Its just very minimal. Signe giggles. Pinkfish says: some sort of pick locks skill needs to be devised. Pinkfish says: for doors and containers. Godot asks: Do we have a standarad pickable lock? Pinkfish says: Ummm. The covert skill heiracy should also be moved and expanded. Pinkfish says: we actually diud this... Pinkfish says: but mackerel crashed with all the code on it. Ember sighs. Pinkfish says: (lynscar and me) Pinkfish says: we also rewrote the skill system to use mappings. Pinkfish shrugs. Pinkfish says: The fighters guild. Pinkfish says: well.... Pinkfish says: there is even less of this than the thieves guild. Pinkfish says: It gets two commands. Pinkfish says: fix and judge Geolin raises a hand.%^RESET%^ Pinkfish says: judge err, seems to have problems. Pinkfish says: and fix. well. it works. Pinkfish says: thats it... Geolin now has the floor. Geolin says: While are on the subject of the fighters guild, I believe Whisper had a word with you pf. Pinkfish quirks one eyebrow. Geolin says: he is re-writing (on paper :) ) the new levels, as it seems silly from level 50 to 300, you do no tgain another title... Yort licks Signe. Pinkfish says: Oh. right ok. Geolin says: for you to integrate as it were... Geolin says: umm...that's it. Ember asks: ok, how about getting people to work on these guilds? Pinkfish asks: anyone else have comments on guilds? Pinkfish asks: yes.. and who wants to volenteer? Pinkfish rubs his hands together. Signe asks: err...silly question but how does paper help us? cant he write it in the mud? Geolin asks: I was under the impression (recently) that HLs worked on guilds and Hls only.. ? DrGoon takes one step back.%^RESET%^ Geolin says: the above answers that one Signe. Signe says: or who they assign Signe says: IC's Godot says: We seem to have a shortage of exp coders to work on them. Pinkfish says: well. One of the thingys about independant creators... Ember says: note that a lot of things that seem like law are just to stop utter gumbies from doing things that they have no ability to do Kringled says: well. I would be really happy to work on fixing fix and judge for the fighters guild.. DrGoon says: i will have a look at some guild code, but i cant promise to find the time, so i will refrain from taking a named project Geolin nods solemnly at Ember. Kringled says: and putting in any other ways of going 'Ugh!' that seem appropriate... Godot says: I have tons of unfinished stuff in the forest... Many bugs still too. Signe says: PM would be a good choice when he's promoted to IC i think Signe smiles at Geolin. Godot asks: How about Tru? Geolin says: yes, he has asked me to consider bringing this up aty the meeting. Signe says: he's not done an area, mostly is teaching people virtual object facility Geolin says: undoubtedly the most helpful I *currently* have in my domain. Signe says: but he is a very capable person with complexity Geolin nods solemnly at Signe. DrGoon says: okay, so we are short of people to do guild code Signe says: that was for tru Geolin nods solemnly at DrGoon. Ember says: well, that was always the case Pinkfish says: which is why I did them all except for priests :) Ember says: anyway, if we don't have any immediate suggestions, lets put it back on the 'keep looking' pile and move on Signe nods solemnly. DrGoon agrees wholeheartedly. Pinkfish says: Ok. Pinkfish says: second item. Indepenant creators. Kringled says: as I said. I can fix up the fighters...rewriting the priests may be too ambitions ofr me Pinkfish asks: who would like to discuss this first? Ember points at DrGoon. Signe says in a meek voice: me?%^RESET%^ Geolin asks: I would appreciate a more concise definition of a IC? Signe now has the floor. Signe blushes in embarassment. Signe says: ummm Signe says: first of all maybe ember could explain to geolin what a IC is Ember smiles wryly. Geolin says: I got a idea, I just wanted a bit more really... (blush) Ember says: ok Signe says: he's much more articulate than me Signe grins at Kringled. Ember says: the primary purpose of having the position of IC is to provide an incentive to creators to do good work on an area so that they can get promoted Signe asks: ember? Signe says: ooops Ember says: it has no extra read/write privileges Geolin nods slowly. Ember says: and all of the work they do has to be cleared by the lords of the domains they wish to work in Ember says: as I noted, the lord of a domain has absolute control over what is put in that domain Ember asks: that enough guff signe? Geolin nods solemnly. Signe says: yes, dear Geolin smiles at Signe. Geolin thanks Ember. Kringled says: well. time to go to work. I'll read the rest of the log later Ember bings sadly at Kringled. Ember waves. Pinkfish bows to Kringled. Yort comforts Pinkfish. Kringled waves. Geolin waves to Kringled. Signe says: first of all id like to say its a pleasure to stand in front of so many studly men and speak...i feel like doing a strip but ill refrain Kringled left the game. DrGoon grins at Signe. Geolin raises a eyebrow at Signe.%^RESET%^ Geolin grins like a maniac.%^RESET%^ Signe says: i caught a bit of flak for asking that kip be promoted but i think i explained in my posts Geolin asks: to IC? Signe says: i think maybe that this should be discussed with as many hl's as possible before promoting DrGoon asks: did you decieve me or did everybody else know? DrGoon smiles sweetly at Signe. Signe says: cant always find em tho Signe says: since they answer to hl's, they should be involved Signe says: and Geolin agrees wholeheartedly. Godot says: I think the lord board is a suitable forum for discussing them. Signe says: they may know something that we dont...see things from a diff perspective Signe nods solemnly at Godot. Signe says: that is all Ember says: ok, well, a couple of points Pinkfish asks: anyone else? Signe fetches lacy red basque from another dimension. Pinkfish says: ember... Signe wears a lacy red basque. Ember now has the floor. Ember says: basically I trust the ls completely Ember says: and if the lord taking care of a creator recommends icship I don't have much of a prob with that Ember says: however, the lords should of course be very cautious Ember shrugs. DrGoon agrees wholeheartedly. Geolin asks: who promotes creators to IC's? Pinkfish says: yes.. Signe says: okie dokie Ember says: I wouldn't worry to much about the hls. I know that I am not really very much in touch Ember says: with what the creators are doing DrGoon raises his hand to request a turn to speak. Ember says: and particularly not what the players are doing (not that that is horribly relevant). Ember says: anyway, that is all Ember says: oh Ember says: you'll have to get a hl to do the joining up to independent domain Ember shrugs. Drgoon now has the floor. Ember says: anyone of the billions will od Chrisy waves to Hotwire, Parsion, Bubblebath, Tricky, Jass, Mannanann, Pinkfish, Ember, DrGoon, Signe, Geolin, Godot, Matrix, Bunny, Sojan, Agragag and Yort. Signe grins at Ember. DrGoon says: okay, basically ember has said it all - in the hl chair, we dont see enough of what is going on in the domains DrGoon says: to get all the info about people, so we have to trust creators, but that is the nature of how we select creators - the same logic should be applied to independants DrGoon says: that is all Geolin nods solemnly. DrGoon asks: general lordy things? Signe says: creators with no domains Pinkfish asks: Ok. Thats all everyone weants to say on this? Godot says: I guess I feel my questions about it have been answered. Pinkfish says: general lordy thingys was signe's. Signe now has the floor. Signe grins at DrGoon. Pinkfish says: so. She can now womble about it. Pinkfish bows colourful to Signe. Signe says: take out your bingles and take a peek Signe says: we have promoted people and put them nowhere Signe says: ariel, gnort, hatsumi, justy, knarfo, lilmother, ozy, toothpick, verner, zaphod DrGoon thanks Signe for raising this one for him.%^RESET%^ Signe asks: and who the hell is snortiblog?? and why does warhawk still have a dir? Geolin says: I am responsible for two of the aforementioned. Signe falls down laughing. Geolin cowers in a corner. Signe says: good, we need one badly Signe says: i even have that on my list Signe nods solemnly at Godot. Signe asks: but should they be PULLED and put in limbo? Yort waves sleepily to Parsion, Bubblebath, Tricky, Jass, Mannanann, Pinkfish, Logon, Ember, DrGoon, Signe, Geolin, Godot, Matrix, Bunny, Sojan, Agragag and Hotwire. Signe says: sorry, pf DrGoon asks: a tell there? Pinkfish says: well. I promoted gnort in the hope someone would claim him. Signe says: or demoted and have to reapply if they like Pinkfish says: hes an interesting person... Signe says: i would claim gnort, easily Signe says: i wasnt sure what you wanted to do with him tho Pinkfish says: justy was promoted by khaos. Pinkfish says: I belive you can depromote him at will. DrGoon says: look - put them in domains over the next week, and i'll drop the rest Pinkfish nods solemnly. Geolin nods solemnly. Pinkfish says: Ok. Godot raises his hand to request a turn to speak. Signe says: justy is goners Signe says: sorry Godot now has the floor. Godot asks: Is signe done? Signe says: i guess so! heh heh Godot says: Well, I guess we should think twice about assigning newbies to building areas. Godot says: I've had a recent bad experience with ti. Godot says: I feel we should assign newbies to building objects first. Godot says: Something simple so they don't take on too big of a task they can't finish. Godot says: Like my forest. :-) Ember raises his hand to request a turn to speak. Godot says: When they prove themselves on objects, then put them to a real estate task. Godot says: That's all... Signe says: perhaps a app isnt out of line, then Ember now has the floor. Ember says: ok, well, I kind of agree. However ... the big problem is that Ember says: objects really don't make much sense without a place in the world to put them in Ember says: I thought about this for a while Ember says: and the best thing I could think up was just Ember says: to set them doing a limited area in their own dirs Ember says: of a set concept in about 10 rooms over about 4 weeks Ember says: with some intensive help in the first few days Ember shrugs. Signe nods solemnly. Godot raises his hand to request a turn to speak. Ember says: that's all DrGoon says: yes Godot now has the floor. Godot says: Uh, Well, that's what I did with Cardinal. Godot says: And he built about a dozen rooms. Godot says: But I'm having a hard time getting him to clean them up. Godot says: Before I put them in the game. Geolin says: That's what I'm doing with Leafstar, I'm having a hard job getting him to <period> Godot says: If he had started on something simoler, then he would not feel so overwealmed. Ember asks: what sort of objects tho? Godot says: simpler... Godot says: Stuff to see in the shoips. Godot says: sell. Godot says: Potions, etc. Ember says: objects are in a lot of ways a LOT harder Godot says: Things for players to spend money one. Ember shrugs. Godot says: Well, more weapons,armour, clothing. Pinkfish asks: anyone else with comments? Geolin shakes his head. Signe says: perhaps they should be required to Ember says: I think it needs to go to boards Godot says: We could set up a few example potions and let them mod them to make them different. Godot says: Done.. Pinkfish now has the floor. Ember says: damn hard with the way I've done potions Ember blushes in embarassment. Signe says: build there wr (room), put objs in it and a char in it Signe says: as practice Geolin nods solemnly at Signe. Geolin says: s'cool. Pinkfish says: Umm. One of the problems as I see it is there are no/not many example files of any use Signe says: and til they do so they are an app Pinkfish says: and they are not in a useful/easy position to find. Pinkfish says: There is also very sketchy documentation on a lot of the mud. DrGoon says: but signe is right - the wr should be an example Pinkfish says: as for being overwhelmed... Godot says: I feel we should put an examples directory in the root where it is easy to find. DrGoon asks: we need to make a more ineresting one perhaps? Pinkfish says: I would hate to not be overwhelmed... Pinkfish shrugs. Ember nods strangely at Pinkfish. Pinkfish says: The workroom should be updated. Its wrong. Pinkfish smiles wryly. DrGoon says: if we add an obect and a monster to the wr then it gives them enuf to start from Pinkfish nods solemnly. Signe says: i also think that sub domains would work for this, as godot has suggested Pinkfish says: true... Ember winces. Godot says: A monster with equip. Godot says: Maybe a lockable door. Ember raises his hand to request a turn to speak. Ember now has the floor. Signe says: intro them to obj, monster and room Ember says: ok, 2 quick points Ember says: 1) we need a file with essential creator 'tips' in it Ember says: outlining the importance of using 'add_command' as opposed to 'add_action' Ember says: and describing how to use the board_mas Ember says: (which is essential to be an effective creator around here) Ember says: etc Ember says: because people just are not finding these things out Ember says: which is very distressing Ember says: 2) sub-domains are ok as long as they are a very loose Ember says: informal idea Ember says: so the lord can allocate an experienced creator to look after a group of others Ember says: and instruct them and assist Ember says: however, I think as a general concept the mud heirarchy should be kept as simple as absolutely possible DrGoon nods solemnly. Ember says: all this official position holding is very time consuming and ... just not reliable on a large scale Ember says: that's all Signe says: i DONT like heirarcy, i DONT like bossy wizzes and i DONT like prestige but DrGoon asks: anybody need more on this? Signe says: i see a real need for a trial or app on this mud DrGoon says: oops Geolin agrees wholeheartedly with Signe. Signe grins at DrGoon. Ember says: unless it is a real difference in abilities (read/write privs) Pinkfish asks: done? Signe says: not to put them in ther 'places' but to train them properly Ember says: it will be exactly the sam functionality as the Cs Ember says: and thus very little point in having Signe now has the floor. Signe says: they should write only to there dirs Signe says: and have no force or snoop or anything Geolin says: They should not have r/w over any domain, only their own subdir. Geolin agrees wholeheartedly with Signe. Signe says: it would be just a small while Signe says: till they completed the three tasks and showed they are not here to boss around players Signe says: if possible in a domain without r/w access Signe says: if possible Signe says: dunno whats possible and not Geolin says: or have a trial domain. Pinkfish asks: Ok? Signe asks: will someone say something so i dont feel like a fruitloop? Geolin chuckles politely. DrGoon says: okay, i'll buy it Pinkfish says: no. I think putitng them in the domain they aspire to would be a better idea. Signe says: me too Geolin asks: can you do that without write priv? Geolin says: perm rather. DrGoon says: yes Pinkfish says: That could be added. Could also be done so they have read access to the domain and not write. Pinkfish says: not having read acess makes reading example code a lot harder. Signe says: i think a chain of progression also motivates to learn Geolin says: yeah, read is a definite, so they can look at some code and cp or whatever, but no write... Signe says: i think lag bites the big one too Godot raises his hand to request a turn to speak. Godot now has the floor. Godot says: I was going to say that if we wait until a creator has invested time in creating stuff Godot says: they should not have write access outside their area. Godot says: This way they have an investment made they do not want damaged. Godot says: And have invested time in DW and want it to succede. DrGoon says: take away mkdir too, so they cant make their own private domain Godot sits down.%^RESET%^ Signe grins at Godot. Pinkfish now has the floor. Ember asks: mkdir? do you mean blowing up the ability to put restrictions in master.c's further down than the root of the domain? Pinkfish says: Ok. I think we are agreed? We will make a apprentice level. Godot raises his hand to request a turn to speak. Pinkfish says: security in domains is something I have thought abouty for a while. Geolin raises his hand to request a turn to speak. DrGoon says: no just stopping them from doing milambers on us and making their directory nice and obvious to look at... Pinkfish says: Its is tricky to make it work in conjunction with the normal access stuff I added... Pinkfish says: Oh well. Minor point. Godot now has the floor. Godot says: I wanted to say I have been surprised many times by Godot says: fairly new creators teaching me ways to interact with players. Godot says: After I had been here 6 months, I didn't even know how to force. Godot says: It seems many new creators are more interested in interfering with players than coding. Signe nods vigorously. Godot says: So an apprentice should not have such abilities. Geolin nods solemnly at Godot. Godot sits down.%^RESET%^ Geolin raises his hand to request a turn to speak. Signe says: i believe i did mention that and if they did have that ability i would not vote for an app Bubblebath bows deeply to Godot. Drgoon now has the floor. Geolin now has the floor. DrGoon asks: okay, how about doing this as a guild? Pinkfish exclaims: 'whoops! Signe giggles. Geolin smiles at Pinkfish. Godot pokes Pinkfish. Signe rolls her eyes. Geolin says: I hate to complicate things even further with your guys master.c or whatever it is, but: Geolin asks: is it possible or can the facility to umm...see who the last creator was to modify a file? Geolin says: be added. Godot says: dates too. DrGoon asks: sccs? rcs? Geolin nods solemnly at Godot. Signe says: im a great believer in templates and am going to insist my creators use them as of now Geolin says: sccs? rcs?? (?) Signe says: btw Signe says: and hate to go on about this but i still think extra_reset() is not a bad idea Signe says: done my aimless babble Ember asks: extra_reset()? Pinkfish asks: extra_reset? Godot says: Well, I put in the bi\eginning of all my files a change log. It isn't formal, but mayber we could all do this when we change stuff. Signe nods solemnly at Godot. Ember yawns tiredly. Geolin asks: any comments on the last modify by and date? Signe comforts Ember. Geolin says: apart from Godot's. Pinkfish says: We could do it from in the mud. ie ed. Pinkfish says: changeing ftpd would be more fun though. Godot asks: Maybe an ls -l? Geolin says: I think it would be a very good idea... instead of relying on the change log at the header of files. Geolin says: and also show the creators name. Signe nods solemnly. Pinkfish says: we have the abilioty to get last modified dates on files already Godot says: Well, the change log also mentions what was changed. Not just who and when. Pinkfish says: well. since we installed mudos. however I have not added the code. DrGoon asks: okay point for improvement - can we move on? Pinkfish says: Ok. This is good idea. Signe says: im so freeken sick of that anal sapient staff that EVERYONE is playing with... Ember says: well, using one of the standard change log systems has been and will be contemplated. If it's not overly urgent tho, I think it should be put at a lower priority because it is very intensive DrGoon smiles slowly. Geolin says: but the disadvantage is that if the said person forgets/ignores/or does not want to put his amendment in there...... Ember says: anyway, we should move on Geolin nods solemnly at Ember. Signe nods solemnly at Ember. Signe says: okie dokie Signe says: donuts? sigh Godot agrees wholeheartedly. Pinkfish asks: Anyone else got another point for lord thingys? DrGoon says: yes Godot asks: lord thingies? Drgoon now has the floor. Signe asks: can force and snoop be taken away with a command via the lord obj? Ember says: that's our current agenda point Signe says: if it is abused? id alos like to see echoall comeback Ember says: if it is abused the creator should be thrown off the face of the disc Geolin agrees wholeheartedly. Signe sighs deeply. Signe says: sometimes they just get a bit overwhelmed Signe says: sorry DrGoon says: creators that are demoted, i'd like not to have to take them out so that we have the files handy for those that want to carry on with their ideas, but i dont want them in /w Godot says: Sounds reasonable. DrGoon asks: should we sort these out into another place? Pinkfish nods solemnly. DrGoon says: me DrGoon grins. Pinkfish says: could auto-magicly do it with the demote script. DrGoon says: okay, i wil Signe asks: whats the difference where there stored? DrGoon bounces around Pinkfish. Signe asks: or does it confuse? DrGoon says: watch Signe says: yeah, you think they are still a creator maybe DrGoon nods solemnly. Signe says: i see now Geolin says: /w/demoted? :) DrGoon says: well, i will think about that one... DrGoon says: next Godot asks: /ex_w? Ember says: and if this demotion thing is going to become a regular event, it might be worth saving the player files upon promotion in the first place so they can be restored exactly as they were Geolin says: /naughty Signe says: /bad/move Ember says: anyway, nevermind. Carry on Pinkfish says: Ok... I would like to ask for volenteers for writing docs. Ember shudders from horror. Godot looks for a place to hide.%^RESET%^ DrGoon says: er, okay, some Pinkfish says: A lot of the creator docs for creator commands Signe points at Godot. Signe says: he volunteers Signe points at Ember. Godot ducks for cover. Signe says: him too Pinkfish says: like call etc are not correctly or not at all documented. Godot raises his hand to request a turn to speak. Godot now has the floor. Godot says: I thnk everyone should have a part of the docs. Signe grins at Godot. Geolin says: we def. need a doc for what creators should/shout not do... Godot says: Maybe we could assign one function per month to everyone. Geolin says: should not. Godot says: Or maybe 5. Godot says: Somehow, anyway. Pinkfish says: well.... Godot sits down.%^RESET%^ Pinkfish says: It is a lot easier if just one or two people are doing it. Pinkfish says: or a certain person is doing a certain area. Godot says: But overwhealming. Pinkfish says: Otherwise things get scattered. Pinkfish says: More boring as oposed to overwhelming :) Godot agrees wholeheartedly. Godot says: Maybe we could make apprentices upgrade a few docs to get promotion. Pinkfish asks: Ok. Any more points for this item? Godot says: It will also be a test of their understanding. Godot sits down.%^RESET%^ DrGoon says: i think that will be a quest for their guild, yes :) Geolin says: I don't mind writing/re-writing some of the command docs. Pinkfish exclaims: excelent! Geolin says: if you point me in the general direction anyway... Pinkfish asks: Ok. Anyone else on this agenda item? Signe exclaims: i have to go to the bathroom! brb! Geolin shakes his head. Pinkfish says: We did balance earlier... DrGoon says: thanks for tha signe... Pinkfish says: so... we skip to the party. DrGoon smiles happily at Signe. Drgoon now has the floor. DrGoon says: okay DrGoon says: party party party Geolin grins like a maniac.%^RESET%^ DrGoon says: what we need to be looking at first is the mechanics Signe exclaims: wait! DrGoon says: what we need to do to run the thing Signe says: i have a quick question first DrGoon says: okay, be my guest... DrGoon smiles sweetly at Signe. Signe asks: what is this police thingy? and can it be solved with having a mayor in the towns? Signe says: do we have a bad police prob? im lost here Signe now has the floor. Ember says: party Geolin says: I think the police idea is more of a domain for helping players and creators with problems by experienced coders... Signe says: baffled by the boards once more Ember says: then police Signe says: i read them quick Ember says: police later Pinkfish agrees wholeheartedly with Ember. Geolin says: rather than umm...not so good things happening in the game. Signe says: just before the meeting Signe says: oh Drgoon now has the floor. Signe says: ok DrGoon says: soory si Signe sits in the corner and looks blonde.%^RESET%^ Geolin snuggles up to Signe affectionately. Signe says: PARTY Geolin grins like a maniac.%^RESET%^ DrGoon says: anyway, mechanics first... we need to disable some things when we make pk free - save, banks, andwhere they can put save files down... DrGoon dests geolin.%^RESET%^ Ember says: possibly just bash master.c to make valid_write always return 0 :) DrGoon says: then we need to look at what we intend offering :) Godot says: Library too. DrGoon says: that should work DrGoon says: we also need to force out with a boot at the end Pinkfish says: thats fairly easy... Signe says: like with the cabbages DrGoon says: the implications of this is that all sorts of horrible junk is going to (hopefully) be on our creator dirs, but hopefully Signe asks: maybe a spec dir for party stuff? DrGoon says: it will let the creators have enough fun to make them understand the implications of using them agressively Signe says: /party/crap DrGoon says: okay Geolin says: sorry, my comp crashed.. Geolin asks: where are we? Signe says: and they can put what ever in there and it will be easier to add to the party Signe says: if its all together DrGoon says: okay Pinkfish asks: Drgoon... finished? DrGoon says: if you like i will make a dir and put some basic ideas in it Bill flips Pinkfish head over heels. Bill flips DrGoon head over heels. Signe smiles at DrGoon. DrGoon says: i have a log (censored) of what signe and discussed at home DrGoon chuckles politely. Signe says: oh geez Signe blushes in embarassment. Signe asks: you do? The room is now unlocked. Signe tries to make herself look small%^RESET%^ Geolin hereby applies to see this log.%^RESET%^ Ember says: moving along folx ... Signe sobs quietly. Ember sighs tiredly. Geolin comforts Ember. Bill says: ello all Pinkfish asks: Ok. Anyone else on partys? The room is now locked. Signe hugs Bill. Godot shakes his head. Signe says: bill will be bringing stuff from nanv, poker and nighties Signe grins. Pinkfish says: Ok. Then next item. Pinkfish says: Police... Signe says: and a most awesome roulette wheel if i can weedle it from snyt Pinkfish asks: who wants to say something on this? DrGoon asks: is this like player probs, or diff? Signe daydreams of being tied on a roulette wheel naked and spun around. Pinkfish says: umm. Ok, lets do both at once. Ember says: has everyone read the note Ember asks: that furball posted? Godot asks: Is it another name for bully? Geolin nods solemnly. Signe says: just quickly ember Ember says: ok, his basic point was that he thought there could be a place for a 'police' 'domain' membership Ember says: of people who would be trusted to sort out player/creator disputes Ember now has the floor. Ember says: & player/player disputes of course Ember says: he went on to also talk about a few other gradations so somtehing between IC/L & HL Ember says: but that is another topic Ember says: anyway, the basic point Ember says: is to define more clearly the Ember says: "rules" and "people" who Ember says: will look after law and order Ember says: end of summation Ember says: my personal intuition is to avoid such a concept Godot squirms in his seat.%^RESET%^ Ember says: someone else can have the floor Bill hugs waFfle. Godot now has the floor. Signe says: perhaps i could help there since im kind and want to resign as lord of ram in the near future waFfle hugs Bill. Godot says: Uh, I'm just afraid such a position would attract bullys. Godot sits down.%^RESET%^ Signe now has the floor. DrGoon sighs. Signe says: its a bit much for me to handle DrGoon says: i'll catch the log Signe says: im lacking in too many areas now that things are getting done and more complex DrGoon goes bright blue and asphixiates.%^RESET%^ DrGoon left the game. Signe says: but things are off to a good start there Signe says: my creators are getting more and more capable Bill seems surprised that there is anything Signe cant handle.%^RESET%^ Signe says: and im getting less and less able to help them Signe says: im a good started but not such a good finisher i think Godot thinks she makes a perfect domain lord.%^RESET%^ Ember raises his hand to request a turn to speak. Signe smiles at Godot. Geolin does too.%^RESET%^ Ember now has the floor. Ember exclaims: you're not meant to help the *expletive deleted* *expletive deleted* ... you're supposed to *expletive deleted* boss them around! Signe falls down laughing. Ember says: sorry. Godot agrees wholeheartedly. Geolin grins like a maniac.%^RESET%^ Geolin giggles inanely.%^RESET%^ Godot raises his hand to request a turn to speak. Ember says: you have gotten things moving Ember says: when everything had stalled Ember says: unless you have a reason like you want Ember says: to spend less time here and more time in RL Ember says: or you are sick of the hassles Signe says: im not being self depreciating....but im more of a motivator than anything else Signe says: no rl, dont exist Ember says: I for one will refuse to give it to someone else Ember says: that's all Signe pokes Ember. Godot raises his hand to request a turn to speak. Godot now has the floor. Godot says: Uh, Yes. I agree with Ember. Signe says: really, im not feeling sorry for myself but im finding it hard to manage now Godot says: We should not make our best coders lords. Godot says: Being a lord prevents one from coding. Godot says: I got almost no coding done while I was temp lord. Godot says: Lords should be people people. Godot says: Who can motivate. Godot says: I think Signe is the ideal domain lord. Signe raises her hand to request a turn to speak. Godot says: If creators need coding help, they can go to other creators or HLs. Godot sits down.%^RESET%^ Signe now has the floor. Signe says: ok, look..cause im very visible and here alot and maybe cause im a girl Signe says: im asked to help players ALOT and settle things Signe says: i like it somewhat Signe says: im VERY player oriented Signe says: and sorta mom to some of the creators Signe says: most Signe says: i havent even had time to read code or go over my area in ages Godot thinks we should dest all the whining players...%^RESET%^ Signe says: im more fun and games and helper Signe says: no no no Signe says: see, players have very real probs Godot says: Just joking... Signe says: as little as not being able to get somewhere to bigtime harassment from creators and other players Signe says: so i get called alot Signe says: i cant seem to turn anyone away but my area will certainly feel the lack of an involved lord Godot sobs quietly. Geolin hugs waFfle tightly. Geolin asks: You aren't about to resign are you Signe? Signe asks: see? Signe says: sorta, geolin Geolin says: awww Signe....... Godot sobs quietly. Pinkfish says: Ok. Well. Geolin hugs Signe. Signe says: oh stop Pinkfish says: This is probably not a topic for the meeting. Pinkfish says: we can hassle her later. :) Ember says: a guild trip is the last thing she needs I think Godot grins. Signe asks: well, your all here no? Signe giggles. Ember says: GUILT dammit Ember says: you know what I mean Geolin nods solemnly. Pinkfish says: next item. Geolin asks: Guild on the brain eh Emb? Pinkfish says: backups. Ember says: well, we didn't as such cover police Ember says: however Godot praises the god of backups.%^RESET%^ Ember says: I don't really want to talk about it Geolin raises his hand to request a turn to speak. Ember says: just leave it on the boards til the next meeting ;) Geolin now has the floor. Pinkfish says: Ok. Pinkfish says: agreed... Geolin says: I raised the backups thing...... Geolin says: it has been noted that some Lords/HLs and Creators have notice their files going walkabouts, I remember Godot saying some time ago, that the entirety of hillshire vanisghed.... Geolin says: luckily he had them locally..... Godot nods solemnly. Geolin says: if I remember correctly. Geolin says: Now, umm... I think it was Funtime, lost a large piece of code from his dir and has not been seen since.. I have always believed in backups, comes from work I think... Geolin says: So I think it would be a very good idea if each domain lord, made a entire ftp of the entire domain... Geolin says: should the inevitable happen.... Geolin says: if they aren't already anyway....I know I haven't, because I can't, but I am going to ask Drgoon if he can do this for me. Godot asks: Can't someone with account access just do a series of tars? Signe asks: cant the machine do that now and them? Pinkfish says: The machine gets backed up anyway. Geolin says: yes, the tars would be a good idea.... Godot lloks for DrGoon.%^RESET%^ Ember says: the prob is the accessability of the backups Geolin asks: how often? Pinkfish nods solemnly. Geolin nods solemnly. Godot says: Should be daily. Pinkfish says: once a week I belive. Signe asks: with so many CIXers here is that really a prob? Geolin says: yes Geolin says: definitely.... Geolin says: even more so...CIXers and myself cannot ftp to here. Pinkfish says: tapes are still hard to get at. Godot asks: Can't it be done with cron? Signe says: drgoon is very visible and ag is here alot too Geolin says: unless they have a machine account, which only certain staff do. Godot says: Just tar to a file. Geolin agrees wholeheartedly with Godot. Godot says: Tape once a week. Geolin says: I mean the entire hillshire going walkies.... what next? /d/am/am? (eek) Godot gasps in astonishment. Geolin says: just being cautious really.... Godot says: Justifiably paranoid. Geolin nods solemnly. Geolin grins like a maniac.%^RESET%^ Ember asks: so? we seem to have agreed on something, but what? Godot says: I never start work any day until I've done my backups. Geolin asks: each lord does a tar of the entire domain and places it locally on their PC/whatever....? Pinkfish says: That cold be hard in some cases. Godot asks: How big would it be? Ember says: actually ... Pinkfish says: I have restricted disk space in most of my accounts. Ember says: oh yeah Ember sighs. Geolin nods slowly. Geolin says: umm..... Geolin says: I dont see a immediate solution, but something needs to be done I think. Godot asks: How big would a compressed tar of the entire game be? Geolin says: the entire game? erk... Godot says: brb Bill says: not that big mudlib & driver fit on a 1.44 disk compressed Pinkfish says: umm. Ember asks: ok, well, can we deputize Geolin & Godot to talk to DrGoon about it and move on? Geolin nods solemnly at Ember. Pinkfish says: It was bigger than that last time I got it ftped to me... Pinkfish says: Creator rewards. Godot now has the floor. Bill says: well i got all nanvs mudlib and driver on one disk :-) Geolin says: bathroom, brb. Signe says: eeeeewwww Pinkfish asks: godot? Godot says: Back. Ember says: he said 'brb' a little while ago Godot says: My local DW is 20MB. Godot says: The lib dir. Pinkfish says: this was your point... Godot says: No driver. Pinkfish says: Oh. Pinkfish says: whoops. missed that. Ember asks: ok godot, about creator rewards? Bill says: well the figure i quotes was excudling domains and wizard dirs...and open Godot says: Could be compressed to half that. Godot says: /d is on;y 1.8MB. Godot says: Oh, sorry, rewards. Godot asks: Am I on? Ember nods solemnly. Pinkfish nods solemnly. Godot stands to speak.%^RESET%^ Godot says: I think we need some way to motivate creators. Godot says: Some sort of reward system. Godot says: Maybe we could have players vote on things like fav area,monster, etc. Godot says: And have current leader mentioned somewhere. Godot says: leaders. Godot says: maybe several categories. Godot says: Fav quest. Godot says: Dunno. Whatever. Godot sits down.%^RESET%^ Signe says: cool Ember shrugs. Pinkfish asks: anyone else? Signe asks: what will they win? Signe grins at Godot. Pinkfish says: a cabbage :) Godot says: recognoition. Ember says: a packet of coolmints Signe says: i know Signe says: i was kidding Ember says: it's not a bad idea Godot pokes Signe. Signe exclaims: coolmints! Ember shrugs. Ember says: but I somehow doubt that the players will vote consistently Geolin grins like a maniac.%^RESET%^ Ember says: you'd have to make an excellent and easy voting thingy Ember says: or they just won't bother Godot asks: Don't we have a vote systems at the patricians? Signe asks: cant it be dont liky 'typo' 'suggestion' etc? Pinkfish says: It isnt written :) Ember says: I think at this point I would say 'put it on the agenda for next week' but we probably won't have a next week Godot grins. Ember smiles wryly. Ember sighs. Signe asks: we wont? Ember asks: when was the last mud meeting? Ember asks: 5 months ago? Zaid grins at Signe. Pinkfish nods solemnly. Godot says: 'Maybe we lords could vote. Godot says: And say in the login that xxx creator is our current fav. Godot says: Creator of the week award. Signe asks: that would entail going over areas not our own and do you have time for that? Godot says: No.... Pinkfish agrees wholeheartedly with Signe. Ember says: oh god, that sounds horribly 'teachers pettish' Signe grins. Pinkfish says: err. yes. I dont like that idea. Pinkfish says: haveing the players vote would be ok. Godot says: Players would be best... Signe comforts Zaid. Ember nods solemnly. Pinkfish nods solemnly. Signe says: i think so too Signe says: but i also think Bill shrugs. Ember says: I'm sure PF will be bored at some point and write the voting thingy :) Zaid smiles at Signe. Godot grins at Ember. Signe says: that if we as lords are more verbose with out compliment and praise Signe says: we'd get people just as motivated Ember nods solemnly. Signe says: a kind word goes a long way Ember says: true Signe says: a kind word on cre goes further Signe hugs Zaid. Ember smiles wryly. Godot says: Maybe lords could occaisionally post something to common saying that so and so finished a really nifty area. Signe nods solemnly. Zaid hugs Signe. Ember says: that would be good Geolin nods solemnly. Signe says: i posted on frog that the mines are open...there not very good yet but Ember says: we should write up a general 'lord/highlord' charter of warm-fuzzy things to remember at all times ;) Godot says: But that wasn't praise. Signe says: boy are george and ghosy motivated now Signe says: umm, ghost Signe says: but i did praise them on cre before i did it Godot says: That is so fleeting tho... Ember says: quite amazing! I bet you wrote '... posted on FROG ...' without even thinking twice about the absurdity of it all :) PF must be pleased Signe grins at Ember. Pinkfish snickers. Ember asks: ok, any offishal summation for this agenda point then? Signe says: nope Godot says: Maybe we could just ask players to post notes on a board as to their fav stuff. Geolin shakes his head. Signe says: no official one either Ember snaps his fingers. Ember says: damn Signe says: or at least ask for feedback Ember says: well, we must push on Godot nods solemnly. Godot asks: Much more? Pinkfish nods solemnly. Pinkfish says: That wa sthe last item. Pinkfish asks: any other aditional points anyone wants to raise? Ember says: oh good :) Ember says: one little point: Ember now has the floor. Ember says: just that I came up with the fortune cookie idea Ember says: which I htink could be very cute Ember says: with a combination of useful hints and Ember says: just general silliness as well Signe nods solemnly. Godot asks: Can you eat them too? Ember says: it would need a file with lots and lots of 1 or 2 line thingies in it Signe says: there always stale Pinkfish asks: Ok. anyone else with points? Ember says: just some things to throw in at the end of quests and the like Ember asks: can we go now? Geolin asks: yeah, when using Nroff, whats this .SP 5 5 etc... any chance of a command list? Ember begs like a dog. Signe says: i like it too Bill says: herm..help nroff :-) Godot says: I like it. Geolin says: ah.... Geolin coughs. Signe says: and i like the idea of having little rewards dispersed inside long evil hard quests Godot says: Guess I should also get around to doing that top player list I was assigned a year ago. Signe says: hence the tmp stufs Ember smiles. Pinkfish says: heheh :) Ember nods solemnly. Pinkfish grins mischieviously at Godot. Godot blushes in embarassment. Bill says: pardon me..but i need to split Signe says: that push you a bit further along and dont let you give up easy Ember says: so do I Pinkfish waves to Bill. Signe waves to Bill. Ember says: tis nearly 4 Ember groans. Signe waves to Ember. Pinkfish says: Ok... Since thats it. Ember says: a 3 hour meeting Ember rolls his eyes. Signe hugs Ember. Pinkfish says: before the meeting falls apart at the seems. Pinkfish says: I will close it. Ember bounces around Signe carefully. Ember snuggles up to Pinkfish affectionately. Ember waves to Godot. Ember waves to Geolin. Pinkfish says: The meeting is now closed :) Logging is now disabled - Sat Feb 20 19:46:59 1993.
