<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 -->
<!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea -->
<!--X-From-R13: "Ybfgre, Dncu" <exbfgreNbevtva.rn.pbz> -->
<!--X-Date: Fri, 4 May 1998 01:52:13 -0700 -->
<!--X-Message-Id: c=US%a=_%p=EA%l=MOLACH-980504152024Z-92177#molach,origin.ea.com -->
<!--X-Content-Type: text/plain -->
<!--X-Head-End-->
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea</title>
<!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" -->
<link rev="made" href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">
</head>
<body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff"
text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000">
<font size="+4" color="#804040">
<strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong>
</font>
<br>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
<br clear=all><hr>
<!--X-Body-Begin-->
<!--X-User-Header-->
<!--X-User-Header-End-->
<!--X-TopPNI-->
Date:
[ <a href="msg00356.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg00358.html">Next</a>
]
Thread:
[ <a href="msg00463.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg00366.html">Next</a>
]
Index:
[ <A HREF="author.html#00357">Author</A>
| <A HREF="#00357">Date</A>
| <A HREF="thread.html#00357">Thread</A>
]
<!--X-TopPNI-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-->
<!--X-Subject-Header-Begin-->
<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea</H1>
<HR>
<!--X-Subject-Header-End-->
<!--X-Head-of-Message-->
<UL>
<LI><em>To</em>: "'<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>'" <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Koster, Raph" <<A HREF="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:20:24 -0500</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Sender</em>: "Petidomo List Agent -- Kanga.Nu version" <<A HREF="mailto:petidomo#kanga,nu">petidomo#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
</UL>
<!--X-Head-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin-->
<HR>
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End-->
<!--X-Body-of-Message-->
<PRE>
On Saturday, May 02, 1998 4:33 PM Dr. Cat [SMTP:cat#bga,com] said:
> I'm out on a limb
> hoping I can perhaps tap into a different and bigger hook - the same
one
> that draws people into talking to each other on the phone (a highly
> popular activity that has spawned a monstrously huge industry).
Time
> will tell.
cf my other post re: Bettelheim. Talking on the phone for social
purposes is "play" by his lights. However, how much of a phone
company's revenue comes from people in the business world (in other
words, engaging in the "game" of getting ahead?).
It's interesting to note that these two hooks are almost always
inextricably intertwined. A roleplayer who is "playing" finds
enjoyment from it, sure, but I bet they will roleplay extra hard if
there's some award to win that marks them as "the best roleplayer."
Girls in their early teens form extremely tight social bonds (in my
memory of junior high, they were like packs, or possibly schools of
sharks...)--yet the environment in which they do so is often highly
competitive.
Dr Cat said:
> > >The "influence trees" mechanism I plan to put in later
> > >should do a lot in service of this.
> And Raph Koster said:
> > I'd be curious to hear more of this. Is it akin to the setup that
> > Asheron's Call intends to use?
So Dr Cat said:
>I really don't know. I haven't read very much about the game and
their
>plans for it. (quick peek) I don't see anything about it on their
web
>site, either.
[snip Dr Cat's cool influence trees system]
I read about it in various articles. Might want to take a peek through
Gamespot (there's a fairly recent preview there). I described it in
another post, but your system sounds similar in intent, though not in
all details.
> Oh I might note in passing here that this is the kind of question
that
> many people concerned about "keeping secrets from the competition"
would
> have responded to with an "I'm not telling" because they don't want
to
> "have their ideas stolen". To those people, though none of them are
> probably reading here anyway, I just want to say "get a life", "get
a
> clue", "figure out how things really work in this industry and
what's not
> worth time spent worrying about it", and various crude and childish
> comments not suitable for reproducing here.
No worries here. :)
Raph (yeah, me) said:
> > Yes, there is considerable demand for a "safe" virtual
environment. I
> > just don't think it is feasible. As we all know, "playerkilling"
> > exists on servers that don't even support combat. There's only two
> > ways I know of to handle this. One is to try to empower players to
> > handle it. The other is to ban it, attempt to handle the problem
via
> > administration, and suffer the PR hit of not being able to do so.
> > (Yes, I am cynical about this).
> > I regard it as axiomatic that the more sophisticated the
environment,
> > the more ways players will find to screw each other over. And the
less
> > possible it is to actually block said methods. A glance at most
all
> > the projects of listmembers reveals an environment which is
malleable
> > enough by players that they can cause harm to others via extremely
> > indirect means. Your choice is to either constrain your feature
set,
> > or accept that you can't possibly trap all the indirect means of
doing
> > harm. And we don't want to constrain our feature set to prevent
Bubba
> > from taming a dragon and then releasing it near Buffy, whom he
hates,
> > and letting nature take over.
>
> I'd contend a lack of willingness to make drastic changes or take
radical
> solutions, like seriously constraining your feature set, or adding
some
> "weird and unrealistic" rules modifications. Taking the serious
> constraints approach, one could dig into the code and find where
damage
> is applied to players, and just disable it, so everyone is
effectively
> immortal all the time. Most players would find this game to suck,
but
> they could easily be reminded "nine out of ten shards work the way
you
> prefer" and people could see what happens. If you want to spend a
little
> more time and effort you could define regions where all players are
> immortal, and regions where they're not. "All non-dungeons are 100%
> safe", or "all places not within X distance of a monster spawn
point", or
> "all towns and roads are safe and noplace else", or "towns only" or
whatever.
> Frankly, even the flawed approach of "a direct attack by one player
on
> another player doesn't work anywhere, buy every other trick in the
book
> does, dragon-taming or anything else" has some level of value, in my
> opinion. The frequency of players killing other players wouldn't go
to
> zero, but it would change. Players of the game might find the new,
> presumably lower frequency of being killed by players to be
preferable.
Apologies for the lengthy quote--I felt the need to put this in
context.
We're in agreement, at least, that such methods are flawed. :) My
personal feeling is that once you say, "This place is safe" that
players will approach it with a reasonable expectation of said promise
being met. A promise which it appears we agree *cannot be fulfilled.*
Therefore I prefer to a) not mislead the players and b) not incur the
inevitable hit when they realize I did so. There's also the question
of whether making such a promise stifles the playerbase from seeking
their own solutions,and thus taking the development of virtual
societies a little further.
It boils down to the fact that players will attempt to exercise power
over one another. Presence of a combat system, the ability to do
damage to one another, whatever, will not change this. Now, the server
may attract a different audience because of its stated rules--eg, less
people seeking to kill, or possibly MORE seeking easy targets--but the
underlying dynamics will not change. I am interested in finding
solutions to that dynamic, not in providing a stopgap measure. I think
said solutions will HAVE to arise from the players, not from a
supposedly-all-powerful-but-actually-flawed "God" up in admin-land.
Unfortunately, as Dr Cat well knows, a stopgap measure has immediate
commercial appeal. ;)
[Total aside: the fact that virtual environments by their nature will
ALWAYS have a "god" lurking out there--even if it's only the guy who
has the power to turn the machine off--introduces an often baffling
social dynamic into the design. Thoughts, anyone?]
> And most importantly, I think it would be a really positive PR move.
[snip]
> Taking something very dramatic, which a lot of players have talked
about,
> and making a big, bold, obvious change and slathering "this is here
> because players asked us for it" all over the thing, that would be a
very
> helpful PR move in my opinion, even if the gameplay of it didn't
work as
> well as the people asking for it had hoped for.
I believe that if we did this, and it didn't work out as they had
hoped for, they would blame us for "not doing it right." Without
understanding the underlying dynamic. More interesting to me is seeing
stuff like this article show up on the fan sites. (Warning, lengthy
quoted article follows). I find the final paragraph particularly
cheering and interesting:
------<start quote>-------
Sonoma-Oasis Call to Arms; Restructuring of the Oasis Guards
After careful consideration we have appointed Lord Dyvim Slorm (ICQ#
774416) as the first Captain of the Oasis Guards. Dyvim now faces the
unenviable task of heading perhaps the first (and currently least
organized) group of city law-enforcement players in UO. We are
implementing the following changes to the Oasis Guards, largely in
response to those players who have been wronged by overly enthusiatic
volunteer Oasis Guards who did not have an adequate understanding of
the principles behind our city:
- An Oasis Guard guildstone has been placed in the Inn. All guilded
guards will be removed from the [Oasis] guild, and added to the [Oasis
Guards] (abbreviated OaG). We have had many problems with criminals
impersonating guards. If the guard is not guilded as [OaG] or [Oasis],
please check with us or our page
(<A HREF="http://steroid.cchem.berkeley.edu/~fields/main.htm">http://steroid.cchem.berkeley.edu/~fields/main.htm</A>) before taking
their word as fact. ONCE AGAIN, to clarify, NO guard has the authority
to "ban" or list as KoS any player. If someone claiming to be a guard
tells you that you are "banned" from Oasis, please ICQ me at 5896613
with their name.
- The Oasis Guards will be stratified to recognize those who have
dedicated a large percentage of their UO time to being responsible
peacemakers and effective law enforcers. We always prefer peacemaking
over attacking, and the guards will learn to adopt this philosophy.
- Guards will be equipped with platemail suits, bone armor, and
weapons crafted by the many superb Oasis smiths. Our uniforms will
also be changed.
- Guards will no longer be accepted on a purely volunteer basis. Dyvim
will briefly interview each candidate guard to test his or her
understanding of our laws and maturity in handling situations.
- All official Oasis Guards, whether guilded in other guilds or in
[Oasis Guards], will be listed on our webpage, with their ICQ#s if
they allow.
- All requests for immediate assistance should be ICQ'd to Dyvim at
774416. As our guard ranks develop, back up contacts will be posted.
- Detailed accounts of all complaints about the guards should be sent
to Dyvim Slorm at ICQ# 774416. An Oasis Guard can be dismissed for any
action unbecoming of a representative of the city, INCLUDING actions
which technically are not crimes in Oasis. For example, if you are a
rampant bug exploiter or like to pk newbie just outside Oasis, you
will likely be stripped of your guard status.
- Naming of criminals to our Kill on Sight list will still be handled
by the founders of the city, but we will place special weight on the
reports of our guards, especially the more senior members. Our
upcoming Oasis Court will hopefully provide a more fullproof method
for listing criminals.
Finally, we are expecting a large (I have heard as many as fifty
players) attack on Oasis to occur this Sunday around our event at 5 pm
Pacific time led by the FoH. We are asking all players and guilds who
believe in the concept of the player-founded city and in
player-sponsored events to move their beliefs into action and assist
with the defense of the city. Feel free to ICQ me at 5896613 for
questions or suggestions. We expect gated monsters, energy vortexes,
as well as direct player invasions. Please see
<A HREF="http://steroid.cchem.berkeley.edu/~fields/KOSframe.htm">http://steroid.cchem.berkeley.edu/~fields/KOSframe.htm</A> to become
familiar with a list of city criminals, as those players will likely
lead the attack.
In a sense,. we view this challenge not only as an opportunity to
engage in perhaps one of the largest PvP events in UO history (which
will hopefully be fun for all), but also as a test of how much the
roleplayers and supporters of player events and player-founded cities
are willing to do endure for our right to peacefully exist.
It is the idealistic goal of most citizens of Oasis that one day the
city will need few active guards, and the spotlight will rightfully
fall on our tavernkeepers, smiths, tinkerers, seekers, innkeepers,
chefs, tailors, beggars, alchemists, mages, bards, rogues, librarians,
scholars, rangers, miners, assasins, diplomats, and tamers- ALL of
whom currently exist in Oasis but are frequently overshadowed by
conflicts with those who would attack us. To approach that state,
however, we need to continue to surmount substantial challenges- and
this Sunday, we will face one of them.
----<end quote>-------
-Raph
--
MUD-Dev: Advancing an unrealised future.
</PRE>
<!--X-Body-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-End-->
<!--X-Follow-Ups-->
<HR>
<ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>:
<ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00394" HREF="msg00394.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> "Dr. Cat" <cat#bga,com></li></ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="00366" HREF="msg00366.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></li></ul>
</UL></LI></UL>
<!--X-Follow-Ups-End-->
<!--X-References-->
<!--X-References-End-->
<!--X-BotPNI-->
<UL>
<LI>Prev by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00356.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: (fwd) Re: POLL: Games ruined by bad players (Player killers, tank rushers etc)</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00358.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: (fwd) AD: [custom graphical] whitestar Crossfire MUD</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Prev by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00463.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Character maintinence - expenditure of resources</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00366.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Index(es):
<UL>
<LI><A HREF="index.html#00357"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI>
<LI><A HREF="thread.html#00357"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
<!--X-BotPNI-End-->
<!--X-User-Footer-->
<!--X-User-Footer-End-->
<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Character maintinence - expenditure of resources</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00373" HREF="msg00373.html">[MUD-Dev] Character maintinence - expenditure of resources</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Mon 04 May 1998, 15:13 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00375" HREF="msg00375.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Character maintinence - expenditure of resources</A></strong>,
Dan Shiovitz <a href="mailto:dbs#cs,wisc.edu">dbs#cs,wisc.edu</a>, Mon 04 May 1998, 16:41 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00380" HREF="msg00380.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Character maintinence - expenditure of resources</A></strong>,
Adam Wiggins <a href="mailto:adam#angel,com">adam#angel,com</a>, Mon 04 May 1998, 19:36 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00463" HREF="msg00463.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Character maintinence - expenditure of resources</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Thu 07 May 1998, 22:36 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00357" HREF="msg00357.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Mon 04 May 1998, 08:52 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00366" HREF="msg00366.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Mon 04 May 1998, 13:14 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00394" HREF="msg00394.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea</A></strong>,
Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Tue 05 May 1998, 13:47 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00430" HREF="msg00430.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea</A></strong>,
John Bertoglio <a href="mailto:alexb#internetcds,com">alexb#internetcds,com</a>, Wed 06 May 1998, 19:00 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00436" HREF="msg00436.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea</A></strong>,
Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Wed 06 May 1998, 21:14 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</ul>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
</ul>
<hr>
<center>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
</center>
<hr>
</body>
</html>
