<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: PK's: A solution? --> <!--X-From-R13: Eunja Vnycraal <znynpunvNvanzr.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:18:08 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 19980428161340.B5877#sun104,humb.nt.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: E1fCNjC-0000J2-00#mail,kanga.nu --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: PK's: A solution?</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:malachai#iname,com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00791.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00792.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00791.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00793.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00794">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00794">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00794">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: PK's: A solution?</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: PK's: A solution?</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Shawn Halpenny <<A HREF="mailto:malachai#iname,com">malachai#iname,com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:13:40 -0400</LI> <LI><em>Delivery-date</em>: Tue Apr 28 13:18:08 1998</LI> <LI><em>Delivery-date</em>: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:18:08 -0700</LI> <LI><em>Envelope-to</em>: claw#kanga,nu</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Sender</em>: "Petidomo List Agent,,,," <<A HREF="mailto:petidomo#kanga,nu">petidomo#kanga,nu</A>></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Tue, Apr 28, 1998 at 10:26:48AM -0700, John Bertoglio wrote: > Remember, I said this was *a* solution, not *the* solution. This list has explored PK issues in the past, so there may be some information you'd find useful (at least as to the opinions and what not of the membership) in the archives. > I have read thousands of messages lamenting the problems of PKing. When > compare the PK messages to the MK (killed by a monster) messages, these > complaints begin to develop a pattern. I posit that most people complain PKilling is a problem when they don't win frequently or it's a vendetta. > > (1) Players do not like to see their characters get killed. This is understandable. In my intended game, they will like it even less when they realize their skills are deteriorating as they wander about bodyless. I'm uninterested in a "Diku-Death" scenario where Piddle can trot on back to his corpse, grab what's left of his kit, and proceed unscathed, sans some experience. Conversely, I don't want perma-death either, so I'm attempting something in between where death could actually be useful (required) in some circumstances. Combat for me does not necessarily devolve into "best equ wins". > (2) Players do not like to see stuff disappear. This is part-and-parcel of the experience. If you were careless enough not to safeguard any of your stuff before you died, then I would hardly feel sorry for you. Death should have serious consequences, with no distinction being made between death-by-monster or death-by-player. I would hazard a guess that in my game, the players will be much less concerned about the equipment they lost than in getting into the closest available body to keep their skills from dropping like stones. This becomes less of an issue if more of a player's attention is concentrated what one is trying to accomplish in the game, vs the equipment he's fitted with. > (3) Players generally accept being killed by monsters Blur the (obvious) distinctions between players and monsters and this becomes more difficult for players to complain about. Also, prefer style over substance: the veteran with a wooden sword can best the newbie in full plate armor, but even the newbie could get in a lucky shot. Personally, I'd feel better about my character dying if it wasn't at the hand of a newbie fitted out in top equ as a gift from someone with a bone to pick with me. > (4) Players generally hate being killed by other players See 3. > (5) Players generally accept their stuff being take by monsters > (6) Players really hate seeing their stuff go to other players As for 2) and 3). > (7) Players are more likely to accept being PKed if there is a REAL RP > reason behind it. I haven't decided that this is something I should be concerned about. Also, I would not consider myself a role player, so I'm not sure I could comment. > > So why is this? I would suggest there are two reasons not generally noted: > > (1) PK's talk. It is bad enough to be killed by Plate Deewd without having > to endure a string of misspelled profanity and insults. Without too much work, it is possible to create a profane and insulting monster as well. To the same effect too, since the monster will care about the victim's response as much as the local vendetta PKiller likely does. > (2) You hold PC's to a higher standard of behavior than monsters, even if > this is mostly a series unconsious reactions. These are other people, after > all. Who *should know better*. This is a social issue and will be applied differently by different people. > So what is the solution? > > Have player killers play monsters. And don't let those players speak (or at > least don't let them have control of the language used). Several methods > follow: > > Method 1: Create IC PK restrictions which make the PKer decide to RP > monsters. The new UO noto system is a good example of logical pk > restrictions. However, it is still very difficult to manage play in this > fashion. I'm not familiar with UO, so I can't comment. What sort of IC PK restrictions do you mean? > Method 2: When a character racks up a certain number of kills (outside of > challenge combat or guild wars), morph them into a junior monster. Or do it > as, say, a 10% chance anytime a citizen (my term for a paying customer) is > killed. I could see this applied if some majority of the kills (frequency of kills on a victim-by-victim basis) were against the same player(s). If I happen to be an adept PKiller who concentrates on the higher level players, should I be penalized? > Method 3: Player is a source of annoyance to the GM staff. Instead of > bouncing them off the system, give them the option to be a monster. Kind of > a probation. Good monster, you get a chance to be a person again. If the source of annoyance annoys me as a player, I would rather deal with it as a player. > Method 4: ? > > All methods: Player- monsters start off as low level types....spiders, > slimes, etc. They reincarnate after a suitable amount of time to higher > level monster. They run around attacking players. They are flagged so other > monsters don't attack them. Here's the catch: They can't talk to anyone but > other monsters. Perhaps just monsters of their own level or species. If > they do a say command to another monster, players in the same area read one > of X messages programmed for that critter. If a monster wants to direct a > sound, action or whatever to at player they type SAY #1 where #1 is the > first message in their message list. That way a player-orc can send a > message: "The powerful orc looks a you with hate in his eyes." Use their say string as a hash key into the message table and don't bother with the "#1". They'll discover soon enough. Is a monster controlled by a player any different from a pure player? If I'm now a spider who had been picking on Bubba, and I return in my new spider form to torment him again, Bubba stands a good chance of realizing there's a player behind the monster: > say #1 You say "The powerful orc looks at you with hate in his eyes." > say #1 You say "The powerful orc looks at you with hate in his eyes." > say #1 You say "The powerful orc looks at you with hate in his eyes." > say #1 You say "The powerful orc looks at you with hate in his eyes." > say #1 Bubba sighs and hands you his new-found equipment. And I don't even have to brandish a sword. Or I could get in contact with my PKill buddies and we could all trundle over and torment Bubba. > Time to > unsheath weapons. A player who works his way up the ranks to say the > exalted level of Demon Lord would gain the power of speech. By then, the RP > habits should be pretty ingrained and the PK would probably enjoy being the > Demon Lord instead of the sociopath he might actually be. Sounds almost Pavlovian--not saying it wouldn't work, but it seems to just shift the focus of the problem. By the time Boffo reaches Demon Lord status how many people are going to believe that there's not a player pulling the strings? Aren't you back to square one if Boffo should decide to reject his training and begin bagging newbies again? Same situation, it's just Boffo's now in a different body. Sure, he could be bumped back down into a spider, but you can't deny that there's an inherent potential for cycles. -- Shawn Halpenny "The abyss, the abyss, the abyss you can't miss." - Roethke -- MUD-Dev: Advancing an unrealised future. </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00793" HREF="msg00793.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK's: A solution?</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Michael Hohensee <michael#sparta,mainstream.net></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00791" HREF="msg00791.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK's: A solution?</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "John Bertoglio" <alexb#internetcds,com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00791.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK's: A solution?</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00792.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: (fwd) Re: POLL: Games ruined by bad players (Player killers, tank rushers etc)</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00791.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK's: A solution?</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00793.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK's: A solution?</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00794"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00794"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00219" HREF="msg00219.html">[MUD-Dev] (fwd) Confusing?</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Wed 29 Apr 1998, 00:07 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00218" HREF="msg00218.html">[MUD-Dev] (fwd) MOB or player? Re: Global Communications on Muds</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Wed 29 Apr 1998, 00:05 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00217" HREF="msg00217.html">[MUD-Dev] META: Membership authentication</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Tue 28 Apr 1998, 23:45 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00791" HREF="msg00791.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK's: A solution?</A></strong>, John Bertoglio <a href="mailto:alexb#internetcds,com">alexb#internetcds,com</a>, Tue 28 Apr 1998, 11:10 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00794" HREF="msg00794.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK's: A solution?</A></strong>, Shawn Halpenny <a href="mailto:malachai#iname,com">malachai#iname,com</a>, Tue 28 Apr 1998, 20:18 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00793" HREF="msg00793.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK's: A solution?</A></strong>, Michael Hohensee <a href="mailto:michael#sparta,mainstream.net">michael#sparta,mainstream.net</a>, Tue 28 Apr 1998, 23:29 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00235" HREF="msg00235.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK's: A solution?</A></strong>, s001gmu <a href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</a>, Wed 29 Apr 1998, 15:19 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00285" HREF="msg00285.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK's: A solution?</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Thu 30 Apr 1998, 21:58 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00252" HREF="msg00252.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: PK's: A solution?</A></strong>, Katrina McClelan <a href="mailto:kitkat#the486,bradley.edu">kitkat#the486,bradley.edu</a>, Thu 30 Apr 1998, 01:43 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>