<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 -->
<!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun -->
<!--X-From-R13: [nqql <znqqlNslfu.bet> -->
<!--X-Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 05:00:55 -0700 -->
<!--X-Message-Id: E0yqcb8-0006MD-00#crucigera,fysh.org -->
<!--X-Content-Type: text/plain -->
<!--X-Head-End-->
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</title>
<!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" -->
<link rev="made" href="mailto:maddy#fysh,org">
</head>
<body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff"
text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000">
<font size="+4" color="#804040">
<strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong>
</font>
<br>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
<br clear=all><hr>
<!--X-Body-Begin-->
<!--X-User-Header-->
<!--X-User-Header-End-->
<!--X-TopPNI-->
Date:
[ <a href="msg01238.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg01240.html">Next</a>
]
Thread:
[ <a href="msg01234.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg01240.html">Next</a>
]
Index:
[ <A HREF="author.html#01239">Author</A>
| <A HREF="#01239">Date</A>
| <A HREF="thread.html#01239">Thread</A>
]
<!--X-TopPNI-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-->
<!--X-Subject-Header-Begin-->
<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</H1>
<HR>
<!--X-Subject-Header-End-->
<!--X-Head-of-Message-->
<UL>
<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Maddy <<A HREF="mailto:maddy#fysh,org">maddy#fysh,org</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:59:50 +0100 (BST)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
</UL>
<!--X-Head-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin-->
<HR>
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End-->
<!--X-Body-of-Message-->
<PRE>
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Koster, Raph wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Maddy [SMTP:maddy#fysh,org]
> > Sent: Friday, June 26, 1998 5:31 AM
> > To: mud-dev#kanga,nu
> > Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun
> >
> > On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Marian Griffith wrote:
> >
> > > True that you can not (entirely) force people to play nice by
> > making it
> > > impossible to be anything else. However providing mechanisms for
> > other
> > > players to deal with the social misfits 'on their own terms' plays
> > right
> > > into their hands. You made the game which was intented a nice
> > roleplay
> > > environment into something that fits the killers. Even players who
> > don't
> > > want to fight others are forced to, because that is the only way
> > there
> > > is for them to protect themselves. So in a sense the killers have
> > won.
> >
> Very nice analysis. Of course, the alternative is for the game to play
> the cop, which is actually rather hard to pull off.
Not really - a NPC sees two people fighting. They wander over and break up
the fight, maybe even arrest them and put them in a jail. The idea that a
cityguard would imediately try and kill someone just for starting a fight
seems a bit hypercritical(sp?).
> > Why do these mechanisms have to require the players to even lift a
> > sword?
> >
> Swords (in-game real ones or metaphorical ones like character deletion,
> banning, stat loss, etc etc) tend to be the only thing killers will
> listen to. Either the game wields it in code, the admins wield it, or
> players wield it. And Mike is quite right that if the players wield it,
> it will be other killers mostly who take up the challenge.
Hmm. What I meant was, why does the average player have to be the one to
stop killers running through the streets killing innocent people? I think
Marian (not Mike - left his attribution string in by accident) actually
meant that normal players would have to stoop down to the killers level,
rather than killers being the one to take on the killers.
> > A truely well written roleplaying game, will provide characters with
> > the
> > facilities to create jobs that are needed. Cities could hire
> > characters as
> > watchmen, to catch and prevent crime. Travellers could hire
> > bodyguards,
> > Lords could build armies to conquer the evil that exists beyond the
> > city
> > walls, thus providing more land for farming and housing.
> >
> Very few players want to be watchmen, or bodyguards. Even if these
> facilities exist, players will tend not to make use of them. Even if
> they are made use of, the result may not be what you intend. Currently
> on UO, every player has vigilante freedo to whack a criminal in town.
> The result: vigilante ambush parties at key buildings leaving many
> corpses around, causing spam, and destroying the sense of fictional
> immersion.
Well I wasn't just talking about players - they're the minority in most
muds. I'd imagine that there are loads of NPCs that would want to be
watchmen & bodyguards to make up for the lack of numbers *8). As for the
corpses, you probably want streetcleaners too?
> > You basically end up with an economy with not only allows the trade of
> > items, but the trade of services. You may even find that some/most of
> > the
> > killers will prefer to be bodyguards, as from the original article it
> > looked
> > (IMHO) like they only became killers because the alternative of being
> > a
> > tailor was boring.
> >
> Some--few, however. Many are in it for the thrill of danger. Being a
> cop/bodyguard is mostly tedious, fraught with danger but not excitement
> on an ongoing basis (risky but not FUN), and it's underpaid--meaning,
> less rewarding than adventuring and ignoring the problem.
If the game isn't providing fun things for a player, it either means the
game isn't fun, or the player is doing stuff they don't want to do. Now I
would have thought that if a player wanted to play a cop, the game would
provide fun cop-type things to do, for example chasing down dangerous
criminals, or solving crimes. In essence provide quests that fit in with
the cop-characters.
You can leave the day-to-day boring parts of being a guard, such as walking
about the town doing sod all to the NPCs as they'll just be following their
programming.
> In the player-run cities of UO, we've recapitulated many of the classic
> problems: player-run cities having problems with absent guards, guards who
> turn out to be in the pocket of the gangs, guards who quit, guards who
> would rather go on vigilate sprees of their own...
To me, these kinds of things aren't a problem and are perfectly natural
things to find in a roleplaying environment. In fact none of these things
in themselves affect anyone else enjoyment.
> Basically, I was all for the vision you described, Maddy, until I
> actually made a game that supports it. Then I found it was mosly a
> mirage. :(
Well I guess we'll have to wait and see what I produce - thats if any of you
are still alive by then - I keep getting sidetracked by really crazy ideas.
Maddy
</PRE>
<!--X-Body-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-End-->
<!--X-Follow-Ups-->
<HR>
<!--X-Follow-Ups-End-->
<!--X-References-->
<!--X-References-End-->
<!--X-BotPNI-->
<UL>
<LI>Prev by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg01238.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: the why of online worlds</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg01240.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Prev by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg01234.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg01240.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Index(es):
<UL>
<LI><A HREF="index.html#01239"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI>
<LI><A HREF="thread.html#01239"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
<!--X-BotPNI-End-->
<!--X-User-Footer-->
<!--X-User-Footer-End-->
<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01220" HREF="msg01220.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 19:02 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01223" HREF="msg01223.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 21:31 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01228" HREF="msg01228.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Mike Sellers <a href="mailto:mike#bignetwork,com">mike#bignetwork,com</a>, Sat 27 Jun 1998, 01:10 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01234" HREF="msg01234.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Chris Gray <a href="mailto:cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA">cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA</a>, Sat 27 Jun 1998, 17:29 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01239" HREF="msg01239.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Maddy <a href="mailto:maddy#fysh,org">maddy#fysh,org</a>, Mon 29 Jun 1998, 12:00 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01240" HREF="msg01240.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Mon 29 Jun 1998, 15:35 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01259" HREF="msg01259.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Tue 30 Jun 1998, 01:59 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01263" HREF="msg01263.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Joel Kelso <a href="mailto:joel#ee,uwa.edu.au">joel#ee,uwa.edu.au</a>, Tue 30 Jun 1998, 03:16 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01241" HREF="msg01241.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Mon 29 Jun 1998, 16:05 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
</ul>
<hr>
<center>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
</center>
<hr>
</body>
</html>
