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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Suggested theme, was Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Suggested theme, was Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: Richard Woolcock <<A HREF="mailto:KaVir#dial,pipex.com">KaVir#dial,pipex.com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:08:59 -0700</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
Dan Shiovitz wrote:
>
> I had this other idea for fostering groupthink: WolfWorld. With most
> dikus (which is where my playing experience is, but I expect this is
> similar for lps also), there are distinct zones you can go to that
> match your power level. If you're a newbie, there are "newbie zones"
> that it's safe to get to (from the starting city) and safe to wander
> around it, assuming you're reasonably cautious. The idea, of course,
> is you start with safe zones and move to harder and harder ones as you
> get more skilled. But what if we assume a very small city (or town, or
> village, or whatever) in the center of a massively hostile world? I'm
> imagining a base in the middle of frozen wolf-infested tundra, but
> there are other lots of other variants: SwampWorld, OuterSpaceWorld
> (don't forget your space suit!), etc. The similarity between all these
Ever read Deathgate by Weis and Hickman? The Patryn trapped within the
labyrith would fit into this sort of theme very well.
> "massively hostile" worlds is that newbies that go out alone
> die. Furthermore, even staying inside the city isn't going to save
> you, because there are regular attacks by the outside world against
> the city (orc invasions, starving wolves breaking down the gates,
> whatever), and if you don't defend the city, its walls will be
> breached and everyone will die. Eventually, the hope is that the brave
> inhabitants will manage to clear enough area around the city to make
> it relatively safe. Of course, the bulging population will make
> resources scarcer and scarcer, and eventually it'll be time to set off
> on a dangerous caravan trip across the demon plains in the hopes of
> making a new colony someplace else. If you survive the trip, that is.
Why not just constantly expand the city walls?
> The idea here, of course, is to attempt to unify the players by
> creating a constant threat that they can't overcome individually.
The trouble is it only takes a small number of players to disrupt the
game for everyone else, unless you're very careful. I do think that the
idea of pitting the players against the mud is a very good one though.
> Furthermore, everyone is needed: the brave high level characters can't
> be in two places at once, and if they're out doing patrols sweeping
> the plains, and they miss a small tribe of orcs heading straight for
> the city, your mid level character may be the only one who can stop them.
> And not just warriors, neither. There's an obvious need for healers,
> tailors, blacksmiths, and so on, because someone's got to repair the
> swords and heal the wounded.
The trick here would be to make all of the roles fun. Perhaps everyone
is 'fairly okay' at combat, but also has an additional skill to add to
the city?
> WolfWorld isn't for everyone: I'm not sure exactly how much I'd like
> it myself. It seems to me like it requires a few changes from the
> standard diku model (but not stuff we haven't discussed already):
It would require even less changes to my diku...I'd just have to add the
outside threat. The trouble is it wouldn't really fit in with my theme
(WoD), unless I used Sabbat vs Camarilla (warring sects), perhaps both
based in different parts of the world - but that wouldn't really be the
same thing as you are talking about.
> relatively small distinctions between high and low level characters,
This is something I am trying to do, and I think is a very good idea. It
is important to let players have ways to advance their characters, but this
sort of system could make characters expand 'outwards' rather than 'upwards',
gaining new abilities without really becoming 'better' overall than anyone
else. My method of doing this is to allow players to spend a number of points
on abilities at creation time, allowing them to 'max out' in areas they feel
are of great importance (so yes, you can start off knowing that nobody is any
better at melee than you, for example).
> lack of truly epic powers, no Big Magic, and, I suspect, a fairly grim
> feel, especially in the beginning (but possibly after a while, you can
> play nice 'n easy adventurers in the big city that was the original
> colony, or go out to one of the new outposts if you're feeling
> dangerous (oh, and outposts provide a convenient thing to do with
> playerkillers: exile the buggers))
Even more interesting is what happens when a poor colony decides to wage
war on a richer colony, literally pitting armies of players against each
other.
> Has something like this been discussed before? I know there's been
> some talk about unifying players by giving them a task that has to be
> worked out together, but I haven't seen anything about doing it on a
> large scale.
Not to my knowledge, although I've missed quite a few posts.
> Oh, and one more while I'm at it. Anyone thought about doing arc games
> that it's possible to win? F'instance, the point of the game is to
> defeat the Dread Lord Bob. When he's dead, or has taken control of the
Ack no! All the players would say "well, thats it, I've won...time to
find a new game". How many linear games have you gone back to after
completing them? I know some people play Doom/etc over and over, but its
just not the same the second time around...
> world, the game is over. Before that, presumably, the players are
> fighting his minions as he gathers his armies in preparation for the
> final clash. There might be some trouble introducing newbies to this
> sort of storyline halfway along: you have to make sure not to increase
> the worldwide threat level to more than they can survive right off,
> but I think it could work.
I still think this would be dealt with better through use of a number of
quests.
One of the things I am trying to work out how to code at the moment is
mud-run plots. The idea is that the mud will run a number of plots and
sub-plots, which can be tied in to various NPC's, players, objects, etc.
In order to do this I'll probably require players to select a number of
'story hook' options at creation time, to help the mud out. Your example
above, with Dread Lord Bob, might be catered for like:
Sub-plot:
Goal: Kill the bad-guy.
Appeals to: good guys, people who hate King Bubba (Bob's King, and part
of the plot which this sub-plot runs under), people who own chickens
(Bob likes to sacrifice them).
Difficulty: medium.
Location: Create a small castle for him, near location 850x/900y.
Main characters: Dread Lord Bob.
Sub characters: the Black Knights, the prince/ss in distress, the
strange old hermit.
Objects: the map to Bob's castle, some hacked-up corpses.
Then you sort of...erm...mix them all up and...well...can anyone give me
a hand here? ;) I think I've bitten off more than I can chew this time...
KaVir.
</PRE>
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<li><strong><A NAME="01185" HREF="msg01185.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Suggested theme, was Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Dan Shiovitz <dbs#cs,wisc.edu></li></ul>
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<LI><STRONG><A NAME="01164" HREF="msg01164.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG>
<UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Dan Shiovitz <dbs#cs,wisc.edu></LI></UL></LI>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01249" HREF="msg01249.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Mon 29 Jun 1998, 19:15 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01159" HREF="msg01159.html">[MUD-Dev] WIRED: One brave soul's UO diary.</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Mon 22 Jun 1998, 21:50 GMT
<LI><strong><A NAME="01158" HREF="msg01158.html">[MUD-Dev] WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Mon 22 Jun 1998, 21:46 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01164" HREF="msg01164.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Dan Shiovitz <a href="mailto:dbs#cs,wisc.edu">dbs#cs,wisc.edu</a>, Mon 22 Jun 1998, 22:53 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01180" HREF="msg01180.html">[MUD-Dev] Suggested theme, was Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Richard Woolcock <a href="mailto:KaVir#dial,pipex.com">KaVir#dial,pipex.com</a>, Tue 23 Jun 1998, 19:04 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01185" HREF="msg01185.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Suggested theme, was Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Dan Shiovitz <a href="mailto:dbs#cs,wisc.edu">dbs#cs,wisc.edu</a>, Wed 24 Jun 1998, 02:29 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01207" HREF="msg01207.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Suggested theme</A></strong>,
Richard Woolcock <a href="mailto:KaVir#dial,pipex.com">KaVir#dial,pipex.com</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 05:59 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01258" HREF="msg01258.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Tue 30 Jun 1998, 00:37 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01167" HREF="msg01167.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Mon 22 Jun 1998, 23:11 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
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