<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 -->
<!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] RE: Character development [was Re: ] -->
<!--X-From-R13: X Q Znjerapr <pynjNhaqre.rate.ftv.pbz> -->
<!--X-Date: Fri, 4 May 1998 12:34:53 -0700 -->
<!--X-Message-Id: 199805050202.TAA01743#under,engr.sgi.com -->
<!--X-Content-Type: text/plain -->
<!--X-Head-End-->
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] RE: Character development [was Re: ]</title>
<!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" -->
<link rev="made" href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">
</head>
<body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff"
text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000">
<font size="+4" color="#804040">
<strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong>
</font>
<br>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
<br clear=all><hr>
<!--X-Body-Begin-->
<!--X-User-Header-->
<!--X-User-Header-End-->
<!--X-TopPNI-->
Date:
[ <a href="msg00377.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg00380.html">Next</a>
]
Thread:
[ <a href="msg00377.html">Previous</a>
| <a href="msg00385.html">Next</a>
]
Index:
[ <A HREF="author.html#00379">Author</A>
| <A HREF="#00379">Date</A>
| <A HREF="thread.html#00379">Thread</A>
]
<!--X-TopPNI-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-->
<!--X-Subject-Header-Begin-->
<H1>[MUD-Dev] RE: Character development [was Re: ]</H1>
<HR>
<!--X-Subject-Header-End-->
<!--X-Head-of-Message-->
<UL>
<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] RE: Character development [was Re: ] </LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: J C Lawrence <<A HREF="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Mon, 04 May 1998 19:02:34 -0700</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Sender</em>: "Petidomo List Agent -- Kanga.Nu version" <<A HREF="mailto:petidomo#kanga,nu">petidomo#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
</UL>
<!--X-Head-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin-->
<HR>
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End-->
<!--X-Body-of-Message-->
<PRE>
From: "Koster, Raph" <rkoster#origin,ea.com>
To: "'J C Lawrence'" <claw#under,engr.sgi.com>
Subject: RE: [MUD-Dev] Character development [was Re: ]
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:03:33 -0500
You said:
> Whoops. Changed my mind twice in the middle there. It started out
> as an on-list reply, but then seemed better sent directly.
> Apologies for the duplicate quote text. <sigh>
I'd actually be sort of interested to see if the list even picked up
on it--my reply to your questions only generated one follow-up. I
agree with you that muddom as a whole, and the list membership in
specific, tend not to discuss these other areas. As you know and can
discern from my posting habits, I tend to be focused a lot more on the
intangibles and a lot less on the code stuff. :)
To answer a point you raised in your note,
I said:
>> Success is moderate. On the one side, I think equating it to a
>> graphical DIKU is really really wrong. A simple glance at the
>> feature list will demonstrate that--heck, a simple glance at the
>> typical player's activities will demonstrate it.
and you replied:
> <nod>
> Yes, I know this. You know this. Your average Wired or Upside
> reader doesn't know this, which is and was the point.
The average mass market reader is going to have trouble really
realizing the depth regardless. The coverage of UO has not differed
significantly from the coverage of text muds five years ago, to my
mind. They still portray it as "roadways lined waist-deep with
corpses," to steal your phrase, regardless of advances in the state of
the art. The article on UO in the current issue of Yahoo! Magazine
demonstrates that.
However, it's also very interesting to note that, to the mass market,
the intangibles I mentioned above are what really capture the
imagination. They can go slay a dragon in dozens of other games, and
the idea of doing it with friends is not earth-shattering. What
captured the imagination of the stockbrokers and the housewives and
the other non-traditional players UO attracted was the idea of setting
up a house in a virtual world, having a pet, making their own
clothing, etc.
As a result, I have come to believe, particularly in the last few
months, that all those sorts of things are a heck of a lot more
important than whatever the "game" supplies. And recent research
appears to back me up on that belief, with its emphasis on specific
things that help in creating community online (keep an eye out for
"Building Communities on the Web" by Amy Jo Kim, Peachpit Press, this
summer--I'd LOVE to discuss some of the aspects of this as they
certainly upset MY apple-cart in terms of some features and the like
that I had always despised or denigrated and now see as vital). A
surprising amount of them are things we either take for granted or
tend not to consider important in mud development: how visually
distinctive a group can make itself, in "tribal branding." What
mechanisms there are for establishing "ownership" of a particular area
within the environment. Etc.
These things translate into tighter community bonds, which matter more
to the longevity of your environment than the game does--or the
quality of the roleplay. This is quite a reversal for me personally,
as I spent a lot of time before UO thinking about ways to solve what I
perceived as player retention issues with muds with game
mechanics--for example, what to do about fiinite levels and tiers of
advancement. A lot of what the press has (gently) termed "questionable
design decisions" came from that concern. And now I think that while
many of my approaches proved to be valid, my premises were incorrect.
Adding tailoring meant more than a complex skill cap formula did.
>> Changing a public mindset takes a lot more than game
>> mechanics.
> <kof> Quite.
I should ask you to post this to the list just so I can get another
aphorism in the library. ;) For that matter, it'd be neat to have a
list of those aphorisms. I've seen so many on the list that were
begging to be quoted...
>> So, their motives are the same ("kill, kill, kill") but to maintain
>> their status and abilities, they still need to deal with a much
>> wider array of activities.
> How to make that *depth* of involvement a known strength of the
> game, and in itself an appealing factor for non-kEWLD00dZ??
Well, I think it already is a known strength of the game, in UO's
case. When I first saw ads for Kesmai or EverQuest that spoofed UO's
focus on crafting skills and the like, I knew that we had managed to
portray a compelling enough take on virtual world design that it was
worthy of spoofing. And I think we did well at making it an appealing
factor for the non-kewldoodz. The question then became one of
scale--we've got so many more kewldoodz, and such a higher proportion
of them than a niche product would have (and my GOD, did I
underestimate how bad that problem would get! I have come to a whole
new awareness of niche market versus mass market...), that all the
classic problems reared their head anyway.
I would be *fascinated* to see a niche product (like, say, a text mud)
that basically did exactly what UO did, with the same range of eco-sim
factors and the like. I bet it would be MUCH more successful at
satisfying the niche than UO was, thanks to the lesser proportion of
kewldoodz in the environment. The hardcore mudders-and-rp'ers who can
appreciate the touches it has make up a very very small portion of
UO's actual audience, and therefore are much less appreciative of what
is in it. :) Whereas within the mud community itself, if they had a
chance to play it with only members of their community, I suspect it
would be a very interesting thing to watch...
Looks like they will be inducing labor tomorrow morning, so Kristen
and I are expecting a son within the next 24 hours... I may be
somewhat absent from the list for a while. And if I haven't mentioned
it before, my kudos for managing to create such an interesting
community on the list itself. :)
- -Raph
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw#null,net
(Contractor) Internet: coder#ibm,net
---------(*) Internet: claw#under,engr.sgi.com
...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...
--
MUD-Dev: Advancing an unrealised future.
</PRE>
<!--X-Body-of-Message-End-->
<!--X-MsgBody-End-->
<!--X-Follow-Ups-->
<HR>
<!--X-Follow-Ups-End-->
<!--X-References-->
<!--X-References-End-->
<!--X-BotPNI-->
<UL>
<LI>Prev by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00377.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Character development [was Re: ]</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by Date:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00380.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Character maintinence - expenditure of resources</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Prev by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00377.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Character development [was Re: ]</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Next by thread:
<STRONG><A HREF="msg00385.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Character development [was Re: ]</A></STRONG>
</LI>
<LI>Index(es):
<UL>
<LI><A HREF="index.html#00379"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI>
<LI><A HREF="thread.html#00379"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL>
<!--X-BotPNI-End-->
<!--X-User-Footer-->
<!--X-User-Footer-End-->
<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00596" HREF="msg00596.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Fri 15 May 1998, 01:30 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00384" HREF="msg00384.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail</A></strong>,
John Bertoglio <a href="mailto:alexb#internetcds,com">alexb#internetcds,com</a>, Mon 04 May 1998, 23:23 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00398" HREF="msg00398.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: FW: (Fwd) Bouncing mail</A></strong>,
Matt Chatterley <a href="mailto:matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org">matt#mpc,dyn.ml.org</a>, Tue 05 May 1998, 14:06 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</ul>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00377" HREF="msg00377.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Character development [was Re: ]</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Mon 04 May 1998, 19:30 GMT
<UL>
<li><Possible follow-up(s)><br>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00379" HREF="msg00379.html">[MUD-Dev] RE: Character development [was Re: ]</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Mon 04 May 1998, 19:34 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00385" HREF="msg00385.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Character development [was Re: ]</A></strong>,
John Bertoglio <a href="mailto:alexb#internetcds,com">alexb#internetcds,com</a>, Mon 04 May 1998, 23:31 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00389" HREF="msg00389.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Character development [was Re: ]</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Tue 05 May 1998, 07:38 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00374" HREF="msg00374.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Motivations for Creating Mud-Like Worllds and Servers | Was: Re: whitestar Crossfire MUD</A></strong>,
John Bertoglio <a href="mailto:alexb#internetcds,com">alexb#internetcds,com</a>, Mon 04 May 1998, 16:37 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00390" HREF="msg00390.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Motivations for Creating Mud-Like Worlds and Servers</A></strong>,
Holly Sommer <a href="mailto:hsommer#micro,ti.com">hsommer#micro,ti.com</a>, Tue 05 May 1998, 07:53 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
</ul>
<hr>
<center>
[ <a href="../">Other Periods</a>
| <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a>
| <a href="/search.php3">Search</a>
]
</center>
<hr>
</body>
</html>
