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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: "'<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>'" <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Koster, Raph" <<A HREF="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:37:50 -0500</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
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<PRE>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maddy [SMTP:maddy#fysh,org]
> Sent: Friday, June 26, 1998 5:31 AM
> To: mud-dev#kanga,nu
> Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun
>
> On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Marian Griffith wrote:
>
> > On Tue 23 Jun, Mike Sellers wrote:
>
> > True that you can not (entirely) force people to play nice by
> making it
> > impossible to be anything else. However providing mechanisms for
> other
> > players to deal with the social misfits 'on their own terms' plays
> right
> > into their hands. You made the game which was intented a nice
> roleplay
> > environment into something that fits the killers. Even players who
> don't
> > want to fight others are forced to, because that is the only way
> there
> > is for them to protect themselves. So in a sense the killers have
> won.
>
Very nice analysis. Of course, the alternative is for the game to play
the cop, which is actually rather hard to pull off.
> Why do these mechanisms have to require the players to even lift a
> sword?
>
Swords (in-game real ones or metaphorical ones like character deletion,
banning, stat loss, etc etc) tend to be the only thing killers will
listen to. Either the game wields it in code, the admins wield it, or
players wield it. And Mike is quite right that if the players wield it,
it will be other killers mostly who take up the challenge.
> A truely well written roleplaying game, will provide characters with
> the
> facilities to create jobs that are needed. Cities could hire
> characters as
> watchmen, to catch and prevent crime. Travellers could hire
> bodyguards,
> Lords could build armies to conquer the evil that exists beyond the
> city
> walls, thus providing more land for farming and housing.
>
Very few players want to be watchmen, or bodyguards. Even if these
facilities exist, players will tend not to make use of them. Even if
they are made use of, the result may not be what you intend. Currently
on UO, every player has vigilante freedo to whack a criminal in town.
The result: vigilante ambush parties at key buildings leaving many
corpses around, causing spam, and destroying the sense of fictional
immersion.
> You basically end up with an economy with not only allows the trade of
> items, but the trade of services. You may even find that some/most of
> the
> killers will prefer to be bodyguards, as from the original article it
> looked
> (IMHO) like they only became killers because the alternative of being
> a
> tailor was boring.
>
Some--few, however. Many are in it for the thrill of danger. Being a
cop/bodyguard is mostly tedious, fraught with danger but not excitement
on an ongoing basis (risky but not FUN), and it's underpaid--meaning,
less rewarding than adventuring and ignoring the problem. In the
player-run cities of UO, we've recapitulated many of the classic
problems: player-run cities having problems with absent guards, guards
who turn out to be in the pocket of the gangs, guards who quit, guards
who would rather go on vigilate sprees of their own...
Basically, I was all for the vision you described, Maddy, until I
actually made a game that supports it. Then I found it was mosly a
mirage. :(
-Raph
</PRE>
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<li><strong><A NAME="01219" HREF="msg01219.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></li></ul>
<li><strong><A NAME="01218" HREF="msg01218.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</li></ul>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01276" HREF="msg01276.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Tue 30 Jun 1998, 23:27 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01260" HREF="msg01260.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Tue 30 Jun 1998, 02:05 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01261" HREF="msg01261.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Richard Woolcock <a href="mailto:KaVir#dial,pipex.com">KaVir#dial,pipex.com</a>, Tue 30 Jun 1998, 02:25 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01213" HREF="msg01213.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Maddy <a href="mailto:maddy#fysh,org">maddy#fysh,org</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 10:31 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01214" HREF="msg01214.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 14:39 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01218" HREF="msg01218.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
s001gmu <a href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 18:39 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01219" HREF="msg01219.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 18:42 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01220" HREF="msg01220.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 19:02 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="01223" HREF="msg01223.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>,
Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 21:31 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
</ul>
</LI>
</UL></BLOCKQUOTE>
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