<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is --> <!--X-From-R13: X Q Znjerapr <pynjNhaqre.rate.ftv.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:05:16 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199805202004.NAA08351#under,engr.sgi.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 9805200613.8xk3@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00738.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00740.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00728.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00746.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00739">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00739">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00739">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is </LI> <LI><em>From</em>: J C Lawrence <<A HREF="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:04:53 -0700</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Sender</em>: "Petidomo List Agent -- Kanga.Nu version" <<A HREF="mailto:petidomo#kanga,nu">petidomo#kanga,nu</A>></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Tue, 19 May 98 23:13:33 MST Chris Gray<cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA> wrote: > [J C Lawrence:] >> Yes, very similar. I'd love to dig out that original article. > Ouch! My back is sore from sitting on the floor in my library > room. (Actually I was lucky - I started at the correct end of the > correct shelf!) Oy vey! > "Sharks and fish wage an ecological war on the toroidal planet > Wa-Tor" - A. K. Dewdney, "Computer Recreations", December 1984 > Scientific American. The issue has a gold-coloured scorpion on the > cover. The bugger of it is that even with the xact title I can't determine whether or not it exists on the ScientificAmerican site. However, I found other interesting bits: A windows version of the game at: <URL:<A HREF="http://nhsbig.inhs.uiuc.edu/educational/">http://nhsbig.inhs.uiuc.edu/educational/</A>> David Jefferson, UCLA, "RAM: A System for Simulation of Complex Biological Systems" A Lisp-based ecological system model. They actually presented several example applications, but I have included just a "foxes, rabbits, and cabbages" sample application discussion. Each animal's behavior is a few pages of Lisp. The system supports natural selection (evolution) of the programmer-assigned gene alleles. This is simultaneously one of the systems greatest strengths and its greatest weaknesses. The ability to include evolutionary changes in the indigenous population is an interesting and valuable computational research aid. Unfortunately, however, as with all of these types of systems, the complete complement of available genes and their manners of expression must be fully assigned in advance by the programmer-as-god. Hence the system is incapable of evolving any previously unspecified behaviors, much less unspecified organisms. Still, this is interesting work. And no one at the conference presented, or was even able to make suggestions for a truly "open-ended" approach that could conceivably overcome this inherent appriori- specification limitation, though the need for such an approach was voiced repeatedly. (I haven't found a copy of this presentation or article yet, just the above reference). Richard Dawkins, U. of Oxford, England, "Biomorph Evolution" / "The Evolution of Evolvability" Watch out Carl Sagan. Dawkins is a terrific speaker and also a pretty mean thinker. He is author of The Blind Watchmaker and is a dyed-in-the- wool Neo-Darwinist. He demonstrates his Biomorph system, which permits various forms of highly interactive evolution amongst 16 different gene types, on a Macintosh. His software is supposed to become available with the second printing of Watchmaker. As he himself points out, however, he has pretty much exhausted the approach he has taken to date, and, as has everyone, he has hit this brick wall of not knowing how to implement an open-ended system that is not wholey specified by the programmer-as-god at the outset when he/she defines the available genes and the genotype to phenotype mappings. Again I can't find anything but the above reference. Why does this sound scarily similar to the social engineering constraints that Raph and Co are fighting with? Some discussion of CoreWars, PolyWorld, Tiera and other variations can be found at: <URL:<A HREF="http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~heinz/genFAQ/Q4_1.htm">http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~heinz/genFAQ/Q4_1.htm</A>> -- J C Lawrence Internet: claw#null,net (Contractor) Internet: coder#ibm,net ---------(*) Internet: claw#under,engr.sgi.com ...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... -- MUD-Dev: Advancing an unrealised future. </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <ul compact><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>: <ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00759" HREF="msg00759.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Ling <K.L.Lo-94#student,lboro.ac.uk></li></ul> <li><strong><A NAME="00746" HREF="msg00746.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong> <ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Oliver Jowett <oliver#jowett,manawatu.planet.co.nz></li></ul> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00728" HREF="msg00728.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA (Chris Gray)</LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00738.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: [MUD-Dev]World Size and The "Hot House" Factor Was Re: PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00740.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00728.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00746.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00739"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00739"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Titanic's demise (was Re: MURKLE: Wot it is)</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="00652" HREF="msg00652.html">[MUD-Dev] Titanic's demise (was Re: MURKLE: Wot it is)</A></strong>, Mike Sellers <a href="mailto:mike#bignetwork,com">mike#bignetwork,com</a>, Sun 17 May 1998, 21:21 GMT </LI> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00716" HREF="msg00716.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Tue 19 May 1998, 20:53 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00729" HREF="msg00729.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong>, Shawn Halpenny <a href="mailto:malachai#iname,com">malachai#iname,com</a>, Wed 20 May 1998, 13:50 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="00728" HREF="msg00728.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong>, Chris Gray <a href="mailto:cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA">cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA</a>, Wed 20 May 1998, 13:49 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00739" HREF="msg00739.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Wed 20 May 1998, 20:05 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00746" HREF="msg00746.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong>, Oliver Jowett <a href="mailto:oliver#jowett,manawatu.planet.co.nz">oliver#jowett,manawatu.planet.co.nz</a>, Thu 21 May 1998, 09:56 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00799" HREF="msg00799.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Sat 23 May 1998, 00:12 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00804" HREF="msg00804.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong>, Ling <a href="mailto:K.L.Lo-94#student,lboro.ac.uk">K.L.Lo-94#student,lboro.ac.uk</a>, Sat 23 May 1998, 14:13 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00840" HREF="msg00840.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Wed 27 May 1998, 03:26 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>