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<H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: CGDC, a summary</H1>
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<LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: CGDC, a summary</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "Travis S. Casey" <<A HREF="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</A>></LI>
<LI><em>Date</em>: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:16:05 -0500 (CDT)</LI>
<LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI>
<LI><em>Sender</em>: "Petidomo List Agent -- Kanga.Nu version" <<A HREF="mailto:petidomo#kanga,nu">petidomo#kanga,nu</A>></LI>
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<PRE>
On Friday, 15 May 98, Chris wrote:
> :The nominative value of progress is also significant. "I know I'm
> :playing well becasue I keep gaining score and advancing in levels!".
> :Its a self-referencing, self-supporting, and self-defining closed
> :system which defines both the goals and the expected accomplishments
> :of players. Its actually almost definitionally impossible to have an
> :open-ended or user-defined game with this sort of system in place as
> :point rewards are tied to activities, and thus implicitly devalue and
> :thus damn all non-rewarded activities. ("Thou shalt have fun killing
> :monsters 'coz you get points for that, but thou shalt NEVER poison the
> :water supply to kill all the monsters, or build towns, or RP, or set
> :up wineries and blacksmith shops because you get no points for that.")
This is the primary reason why I favor learn-by-using-based skill
systems. In such a system, players are free to define their own goals
(at least, as far as character advancement goes), and the means of
achieving those goals to is to exercise the skill in question.
> Whilst reading the above, something just occurred to me (probably already
> been tried). Many MUDs have safe zones where player-killing is not allowed.
> Its a simple mechanism, but seems effective. In mine, I only allow combat
> in the single combat zone. Similar effect. So, how about letting players
> choose whether or not their character particpates in the "kill things and
> gain levels" race? Such a character can still fight and kill things, and
> may well have an internal, never-revealed set of stats, but no-one (except
> perhaps admins or wizards) can determine the actual stats. If someone (e.g.
> a player-kill d00d) attacks them, then they can fight back, with whatever
> skill they actually possess. If they are killed, the PK-er gets *no* points,
> but if the PK-er is killed or harmed, they lose as they normally would.
> Levellers would always be free to participate in the non-levelling activities
> of the game, right along with the rest of the characters. The two systems
> would not really be separate - they would share currency, etc.
> Is it too much to hope that the PK-ers would tend to leave the non-levellers
> alone, since they really aren't worth it? Unless of course they are *really*
> ticked off, but then they are effectively role-playing in their killing!
It's too much to hope that *all* PK-ers would leave the non-levellers
alone. PKers, in my experience, tend to fall into three groups:
1. Vultures. These are people who PK because they've found it to be
an easy way to gain experience, money, equipment, or whatever.
There are several things about most muds which make this strategy
effective:
- It's easier to find heavily-wounded PCs than heavily-wounded
monsters. This is because PCs move with purpose, where monsters
move randomly. Thus, one can lie in wait in a place where
wounded PCs are likely to go (e.g., the entrance to an area
which offers healing) and wait for them to come to you.
- PCs tend to have more money and equipment than a monster of
equivalent power. On most muds, monsters are built with a
minimum of equipment -- often, only a single weapon and armor.
Thus, PCs are a better source of equipment.
- Huge differences in combat ability exist between players. On
most muds, a medium-level PC is several times harder to kill
than a low-level PC when they are both at full strength -- much
less when one is weakened. Therefore, PKers can choose who they
attack in order to only take on easy kills.
- Attrition-based combat (i.e., hit points). With traditional
hit point-based combat, a PKer can be secure in his/her ability
to fight for some length of time without being killed.
- PK-safe areas. Having areas where PK can't be done can actually
help out PKers, if there are only a few ways in to such areas.
Most muds which have these areas will place healing in them --
thus, the routes to them become good ambush points. With
attrition-based combat, the PKers don't have to worry about
being PKed themselves -- they know their hit points will hold
out long enough for them to get back to the nearby PK-safe area.
- There is a constant stream of new players who don't know about
the PKers and therefore don't know what behaviors/places to
avoid. Further, these new players are very easy to kill.
Your proposal would tend to lower the number of vultures, since it
takes away the impetus of gaining easy experience. However,
non-levellers might still be useful to kill to gain equipment and
money.
2. Hunters. These players PK for the challenge -- since monsters on
most muds show no intelligence or tactics whatsoever, these
players seek out more intelligent opponents to hunt. From what
I've seen, pure hunters tend to form a clique within the mud and
hunt each other. They do so for two reasons -- 1. They aren't
seeking to hurt other players' feelings, so they prefer to hunt
those who are at least semi-willing to be hunted, and 2. Other
hunters are a greater challenge.
These are the kinds of PKers who like to hold running battles that
sprawl across half the mud, with each side having several people.
In general, they don't bother non-PKers, so there's little need to
do anything about them. These sorts of PKers also don't mind if a
mud only has PK by choice.
Hunters are unlikely to go after non-levellers, because those who
choose to be non-levellers aren't likely to want to participate in
hunting. You don't mention whether non-levellers would be able to
initiate combat against other PCs. In they can, it's possible that
hunters might *choose* to become non-levellers for two reasons:
- All the hunters are then on a more even keel, making tactics
more important.
- No one will lose any levels from the hunt.
3. Bullies. These players PK because they enjoy messing things up
for other people. Some of them restrict their activities to
certain others, based on either in-game or out-of-game
considerations. These tend to be the most vociferous opponents of
non-PK systems, and are the most likely to look for loopholes that
will allow them to kill other PCs when they're not supposed to be
able to. Bullies are encouraged by traditional mud systems, since
they can "safely" go after lower-level characters.
Bullies will continue to go after non-levellers. If non-levellers
can attack other PCs, bullies might choose to become non-levellers
if they have a decent amount of power, because then others can't
PK them down for revenge.
Of course, a particular PKer may belong to one or more of these
categories to varying degrees. Also, these categories describe only
habitual PKers -- many players will PK for revenge or other motives,
but do not make a habit of it.
About PK and role-playing -- PK can be role-playing, but only if the
PK is being done for in-character reasons. Thus, a bully who plays a
dwarf and decides to PK all the orc and elf players he/she can could
be considered to be role-playing. One who chooses to PK any PC whose
player likes a certain (real-world) sports team, however, is not
role-playing.
It should be noted, though, that role-playing is not necessarily the
most important aspect of role-playing games. IMHO, having fun is more
important. Since a bully's purpose is to ruin other players' fun,
even a bully who is role-playing should not be tolerated, IMHO.
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel#io,com>
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)
--
MUD-Dev: Advancing an unrealised future.
</PRE>
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<li><strong><A NAME="00754" HREF="msg00754.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: CGDC, a summary</A></strong>
<ul compact><li><em>From:</em> Marian Griffith <gryphon#iaehv,nl></li></ul>
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<ul><li>Thread context:
<BLOCKQUOTE><UL>
<LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: CGDC, a summary</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM>
<ul compact>
<ul compact>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00592" HREF="msg00592.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: CGDC, a summary</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Fri 15 May 1998, 00:27 GMT
</LI>
</ul>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00518" HREF="msg00518.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: CGDC, a summary</A></strong>,
Chris Gray <a href="mailto:cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA">cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA</a>, Tue 12 May 1998, 06:02 GMT
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00628" HREF="msg00628.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: CGDC, a summary</A></strong>,
Chris Gray <a href="mailto:cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA">cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA</a>, Sat 16 May 1998, 06:02 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00711" HREF="msg00711.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: CGDC, a summary</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Tue 19 May 1998, 19:44 GMT
</LI>
</UL>
</LI>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00651" HREF="msg00651.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: CGDC, a summary</A></strong>,
Travis S. Casey <a href="mailto:efindel#io,com">efindel#io,com</a>, Sun 17 May 1998, 21:15 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00754" HREF="msg00754.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: CGDC, a summary</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Thu 21 May 1998, 16:40 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00835" HREF="msg00835.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: CGDC, a summary</A></strong>,
J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Tue 26 May 1998, 19:33 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00856" HREF="msg00856.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: CGDC, a summary</A></strong>,
Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Mon 01 Jun 1998, 14:56 GMT
<UL>
<LI><strong><A NAME="00864" HREF="msg00864.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: CGDC, a summary</A></strong>,
Jon A. Lambert <a href="mailto:jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com">jlsysinc#ix,netcom.com</a>, Wed 03 Jun 1998, 03:16 GMT
</LI>
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