<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun --> <!--X-From-R13: [nevna Uevssvgu <telcubaNvnrui.ay> --> <!--X-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:42:56 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: Marcel-1.45-0626192145-0b0Ky&5#catling,demon.nl --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: 11A17AA2B9EAD111BCEA00A0C9B417932EE946#forest,origin.ea.com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg01218.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01220.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg01218.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg01220.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#01219">Author</A> | <A HREF="#01219">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#01219">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: "'<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>'" <<A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A>></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</LI> <LI><em>From</em>: Marian Griffith <<A HREF="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:21:45 +0100 (BST)</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Fri 26 Jun, Koster, Raph wrote: > > From: Maddy [SMTP:maddy#fysh,org] > > On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Marian Griffith wrote: > > >True that you can not (entirely) force people to play nice by > > >making it impossible to be anything else. However providing > > >mechanisms for other players to deal with the social misfits 'on > > >their own terms' plays right into their hands. You made the game > > >which was intented a nice roleplay environment into something that > > >fits the killers. Even players who don't want to fight others are > > >forced to, because that is the only way there is for them to protect > > >themselves. So in a sense the killers have won. > Very nice analysis. Of course, the alternative is for the game to play > the cop, which is actually rather hard to pull off. *blush* thank you. > > Why do these mechanisms have to require the players to even lift a > > sword? > Swords (in-game real ones or metaphorical ones like character deletion, > banning, stat loss, etc etc) tend to be the only thing killers will > listen to. Which is a very sad fact if you think about it. > Either the game wields it in code, the admins wield it, or > players wield it. And Mike is quite right that if the players wield it, > it will be other killers mostly who take up the challenge. Well, actually it was me who wrote it, but that's ok ;) > > A truely well written roleplaying game, will provide characters with > > the facilities to create jobs that are needed. Cities could hire > > characters as watchmen, to catch and prevent crime. Travellers could > > hire bodyguards, > > Lords could build armies to conquer the evil that exists beyond the > > city walls, thus providing more land for farming and housing. > Very few players want to be watchmen, or bodyguards. Even if these > facilities exist, players will tend not to make use of them. Even if > they are made use of, the result may not be what you intend. Currently > on UO, every player has vigilante freedo to whack a criminal in town. > The result: vigilante ambush parties at key buildings leaving many > corpses around, causing spam, and destroying the sense of fictional > immersion. I guess it is slightly better than the thing I read in a player's diary of his early experiences. (I paraphrase) Ultima is ruled by an atmosphere of fear. People are afraid to stop and talk, for fear of being attacked. I suppose the new system is a step in the right direction. I could only wish that it weren't necessary to create vigilante players. > > You basically end up with an economy with not only allows the trade of > > items, but the trade of services. You may even find that some/most of > > the killers will prefer to be bodyguards, as from the original article it > > looked (IMHO) like they only became killers because the alternative of > > being a tailor was boring. > Some--few, however. Many are in it for the thrill of danger. Being a > cop/bodyguard is mostly tedious, fraught with danger but not excitement > on an ongoing basis (risky but not FUN), and it's underpaid--meaning, > less rewarding than adventuring and ignoring the problem. In the > player-run cities of UO, we've recapitulated many of the classic > problems: player-run cities having problems with absent guards, guards > who turn out to be in the pocket of the gangs, guards who quit, guards > who would rather go on vigilate sprees of their own... > Basically, I was all for the vision you described, Maddy, until I > actually made a game that supports it. Then I found it was mosly a > mirage. :( This is one of the saddest facts I have read about the possibility (and future) of true roleplaying games. I think I am going to cry a bit. Marian -- Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world, out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again will there be loneliness ... Rolan Choosing Talia, Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="01214" HREF="msg01214.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> "Koster, Raph" <rkoster#origin,ea.com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01218.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01220.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01218.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg01220.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#01219"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#01219"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><STRONG>[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</STRONG>, <EM>(continued)</EM> <ul compact> <ul compact> <ul compact> <LI><strong><A NAME="01261" HREF="msg01261.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Richard Woolcock <a href="mailto:KaVir#dial,pipex.com">KaVir#dial,pipex.com</a>, Tue 30 Jun 1998, 02:25 GMT </LI> </ul> </ul> <LI><strong><A NAME="01213" HREF="msg01213.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Maddy <a href="mailto:maddy#fysh,org">maddy#fysh,org</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 10:31 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01214" HREF="msg01214.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 14:39 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01218" HREF="msg01218.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, s001gmu <a href="mailto:s001gmu#nova,wright.edu">s001gmu#nova,wright.edu</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 18:39 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01219" HREF="msg01219.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Marian Griffith <a href="mailto:gryphon#iaehv,nl">gryphon#iaehv,nl</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 18:42 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01220" HREF="msg01220.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 19:02 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01223" HREF="msg01223.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Dr. Cat <a href="mailto:cat#bga,com">cat#bga,com</a>, Fri 26 Jun 1998, 21:31 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="01228" HREF="msg01228.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Mike Sellers <a href="mailto:mike#bignetwork,com">mike#bignetwork,com</a>, Sat 27 Jun 1998, 01:10 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="01234" HREF="msg01234.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: WIRED: Kilers have more fun</A></strong>, Chris Gray <a href="mailto:cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA">cg#ami-cg,GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA</a>, Sat 27 Jun 1998, 17:29 GMT </LI> </ul> </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>