<!-- MHonArc v2.4.4 --> <!--X-Subject: [MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is --> <!--X-From-R13: X Q Znjerapr <pynjNhaqre.rate.ftv.pbz> --> <!--X-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:48:22 -0700 --> <!--X-Message-Id: 199805160148.SAA03724#under,engr.sgi.com --> <!--X-Content-Type: text/plain --> <!--X-Reference: Pine.SGI.3.94.980514172419.22381E-100000#studio,origin.ea.com --> <!--X-Head-End--> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <html> <head> <title>MUD-Dev message, [MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</title> <!-- meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" --> <link rev="made" href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com"> </head> <body background="/backgrounds/paperback.gif" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#0000FF" alink="#FF0000" vlink="#006000"> <font size="+4" color="#804040"> <strong><em>MUD-Dev<br>mailing list archive</em></strong> </font> <br> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] <br clear=all><hr> <!--X-Body-Begin--> <!--X-User-Header--> <!--X-User-Header-End--> <!--X-TopPNI--> Date: [ <a href="msg00619.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00622.html">Next</a> ] Thread: [ <a href="msg00588.html">Previous</a> | <a href="msg00606.html">Next</a> ] Index: [ <A HREF="author.html#00621">Author</A> | <A HREF="#00621">Date</A> | <A HREF="thread.html#00621">Thread</A> ] <!--X-TopPNI-End--> <!--X-MsgBody--> <!--X-Subject-Header-Begin--> <H1>[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</H1> <HR> <!--X-Subject-Header-End--> <!--X-Head-of-Message--> <UL> <LI><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Subject</em>: [MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is </LI> <LI><em>From</em>: J C Lawrence <<A HREF="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</A>></LI> <LI><em>Date</em>: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:48:11 -0700</LI> <LI><em>Reply-To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:mud-dev#kanga,nu">mud-dev#kanga,nu</A></LI> <LI><em>Sender</em>: "Petidomo List Agent -- Kanga.Nu version" <<A HREF="mailto:petidomo#kanga,nu">petidomo#kanga,nu</A>></LI> </UL> <!--X-Head-of-Message-End--> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--> <HR> <!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--> <!--X-Body-of-Message--> <PRE> On Thu, 14 May 1998 17:38:55 -0500 (CDT) Raph Koster<rkoster#origin,ea.com> wrote: > On Thu, 14 May 1998, J C Lawrence wrote: >> On Fri, 08 May 1998 17:54:27 -0700 J C >> Lawrence<claw#under,engr.sgi.com> wrote: >>> A preface on MUD game design: >>> The largest failure of MUDs is that they have generally never, >>> and never stably, been able to assemble large simultaneous >>> populations. What is "large" in this context? I would start at >>> 500 as still being on the verges of small. >>> Raph, Sellers: Can you provide context from UOL and M59 here? >> I would be interested in a genetic comparison here in particular. >> What is the minimum population required to supply sufficient >> genetic diversity to be considered "viable"? Yes, I know that this >> is highly dependant on the range of genetic diversity in the >> subject species, as well as its rate of internal divergence and >> other factors, however the same principle seems to underlie. > I'm not sure what sort of context you are looking for. It struck me upon re-reading the above, that the process of building societies within populations and having those societies be viable was remarkably similar in character to that of the genetic viability of species populations. The mechanics and growth patterns on the uneducated face of it seemed very similar. > UO during the beta test had already started developing things like > player towns, if that sort of activity is what you were referring > to. That was during the second beta phase, which I think numbered > around 20,000 total, for around 2500 simultaneous playersB. I do not > recall any player towns developed in the first phase, which was an > order of magnitude smaller. But then, there may simply not have been > enough time for them to develop. Is that 2,500 players simultaneously on the same shard? > As far as "genetic diversity," you'd have to give me some criteria > for what sort of thing you are looking for. Largely in the player base the genetic diversity would be represented by the variation is game expectation and goals nurtuted by each player. I suspect the genetic parallel is more than a bit forced at the faint level we're able to examine and model it. We're just not capable of gathering enough data to see if or to what extent its applicable. The mechanics certainly *appear* similar. >> I'd *really* also like to avoid a tile based game (they don't >> handle convex hulls well for instance -- and I *really* want to >> handle reasonably complex surface forms (yes, incl klein bottles >> and your standard Escher art re-mocks)). This is going to be a >> heavily puzzle-oriented and allusory game world. Visual puzzles >> and tricks are fun. I want them. > There are of course HUGE advantages to tile-based. Particularly if > you have limited art capabilities. Don't knock it. :) Yeah yeah, I know. My eyes are of course bigger than my cranium. Me-um wantum 30fps truecolour mega-pixel 1st person animation with stereoscopic surround sound. (Yes, Magic Edge is less than a block from where I'm sitting now). No can do, even if I had the hardware to make it possible (which I might just have here at SGI). Not my area of expertise. I did just run thru the MudConnector and review the other current graphical efforts (BTW: the screenshot URL for UOL has rotted). First thought: NetStorm looks utterly fascinating (Jon! Looks like one you might be interested in as well). I'd have a very very easy time persuading myself to buy that, and I haven't bought a new off-the-shelf game in years. <URL:<A HREF="http://www.titanic.com/netstorm.html">http://www.titanic.com/netstorm.html</A>> Second thoughts: Tiles aren't *that* bad. They are ridiculously cheap, and I might be able to get away with the clever stuff in fly-over windows (expensive) or textual descriptions (cheap). Top down is for the birds. Isometric views, especially those as in "Lords of Empyria" (URL:<A HREF="http://www.empyria.com/">http://www.empyria.com/</A> you have to dig under "The Land Of Panterra" to find the screenshots) which use a fish-eye lens to cover a greater geographic area in the view (see the "Jungle Graphics" and "Lordship Castle" graphics in particular) I find very unappealing as i t gives far too much sense of context and reduces the significant of distance and boundary containment massively (notice how very very small that swamp actually is despite its fearsome appearance?). UOL's variation (less fish-eye, shorter focal depth, less size distortion etc), is much better, but still more impersonal than I'd prefer. Asheron's or EQ's first order rendering is actually even more off-putting in the crudity of their landscape in their sample shots. The idea of large hills and ridges with perfectly planar sides is incredibly grating to me, even if an obvious development simplification and fairly easily rectified before ship. Hurm. Dunno. >> Third preference: 3rd person over the shoulder cam. Nothing >> terribly unusual here, tho its my least favourite. Main complaints >> against it are that I find the site of the character waving things >> about in front of his face, and thus my view (cf M59) expressly >> irritating. 1st person view is merely a variation on this >> irritation, especially given the problems of peripheral view and >> awareness as discussed earlier (stand in place and spin like a >> top?). > There was a thread probably available via DejaNews in which a couple > of us (I think Dr Cat, myself, and possibly others) argued 1st > person versus 3rd person in a mud context on socialization, > pre-conception, and player behavior grounds. It was a couple of > years ago. Yep. That's the thread that got Dr Cat invited to the list AIR. I think I got you from the Skill Tree stuff. -- J C Lawrence Internet: claw#null,net (Contractor) Internet: coder#ibm,net ---------(*) Internet: claw#under,engr.sgi.com ...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... -- MUD-Dev: Advancing an unrealised future. </PRE> <!--X-Body-of-Message-End--> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <HR> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <UL><LI><STRONG>References</STRONG>: <UL> <LI><STRONG><A NAME="00588" HREF="msg00588.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></STRONG> <UL><LI><EM>From:</EM> Raph Koster <rkoster#origin,ea.com></LI></UL></LI> </UL></LI></UL> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00619.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: Leaving characters in play</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00622.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: [MUD-Dev]World Size and The "Hot House" Factor Was Re: PK and my "Mobless MUD" idea</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00588.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg00606.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="index.html#00621"><STRONG>Date</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thread.html#00621"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> <ul><li>Thread context: <BLOCKQUOTE><UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00485" HREF="msg00485.html">[MUD-Dev] META: Search features of the MUD-Dev archive</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#greek,kanga.nu">claw#greek,kanga.nu</a>, Sun 10 May 1998, 05:48 GMT <LI><strong><A NAME="00479" HREF="msg00479.html">[MUD-Dev] MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Sat 09 May 1998, 00:56 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00587" HREF="msg00587.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Thu 14 May 1998, 20:13 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00588" HREF="msg00588.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong>, Raph Koster <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Thu 14 May 1998, 22:35 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00621" HREF="msg00621.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Sat 16 May 1998, 01:48 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00606" HREF="msg00606.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong>, Mike Sellers <a href="mailto:mike#bignetwork,com">mike#bignetwork,com</a>, Fri 15 May 1998, 15:28 GMT <UL> <LI><strong><A NAME="00635" HREF="msg00635.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong>, Nathan F Yospe <a href="mailto:yospe#hawaii,edu">yospe#hawaii,edu</a>, Sat 16 May 1998, 21:07 GMT </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00702" HREF="msg00702.html">[MUD-Dev] Re: MURKLE: Wot it is</A></strong>, J C Lawrence <a href="mailto:claw#under,engr.sgi.com">claw#under,engr.sgi.com</a>, Tue 19 May 1998, 18:21 GMT </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> </LI> <LI><strong><A NAME="00473" HREF="msg00473.html">[MUD-Dev] RE: Some essays I've written lately</A></strong>, Koster, Raph <a href="mailto:rkoster#origin,ea.com">rkoster#origin,ea.com</a>, Fri 08 May 1998, 16:49 GMT </LI> </UL></BLOCKQUOTE> </ul> <hr> <center> [ <a href="../">Other Periods</a> | <a href="../../">Other mailing lists</a> | <a href="/search.php3">Search</a> ] </center> <hr> </body> </html>